The Saint...

[Warped9]

I must admit to never having read the books, so my only experience of the character is the Roger Moore version. So I don't know how book-accurate it is. Nonetheless, it is an enjoyable series.

Moore sounds like the Saint to me, and his portrayal is more in vein of the later Saint books from the '40s onward when Simon Templar seems to have mellowed a touch. But the early Saint books of the '30s give Templar something akin to a manic energy. He is irrepressable. The books' Simon Templar could also on occasion be quite a cold and ruthless character---he could have quite a dangerous edge to him which may or may not have come across in the Moore series. Indeed Moore's portrayal of Bond at times was also very much like the Saint of the books.

In the books there is a phrase used once or twice: he had a saintly way of doing unsaintly things. The literary Saint rarely batted an eye or gave too much thought to one of the ungodly meeting his demise.

In the books, particularly during the '30s, it's never really whitewashed that Simon Templar is a crook. His distinction is that his victims are other criminals and the corrupt. In the '40s there are vague references that Templar is connected to American and British secret services, giving him something of a pass in how he went after the baddies. Both TV series don't really play up Templar's past, but rather come in when he's more widely known and vaguely respectable. For myself I think the best stories are generally from the '30s when he's feared and wanted by the cops as much as the criminals.

It's a little tough to imagine a character like the Saint today because crime fighting resources are so much more sophisticated today. That's partly why I would relish seeing a period piece Saint film because it puts the character back in the era when his wits and resourcefulness could really shine. I suppose it's akin to why some of us like shows like Murdoch Mysteries partly because of the appeal of seeing intellect and resourcefulness at work rather than gadgetry. A period piece would also have more of a romanticized air to it unlike a familiar contemporary setting.
And the Saint was always meant to be a romanticized character.

Here's a quote from a review on Amazon that sums up the literary Saint nicely:

"Meet The Tiger (later retitled The Saint Meets The Tiger) published in 1928, was Leslie Charteris's first book in the Saint saga (even though Hodder & Stoughton later pretended that Enter The Saint was, presumably because they weren't the publishers of the former).

Nevertheless, Enter The Saint is the book that introduces Simon Templar as he is in most of the books that follow, and as neither the cinema nor television has yet had the nerve to portray him: he beats people up, robs them, blackmails them, even murders them, and gets away with it. And the fact that his victims are particularly vicious thugs (Snake Ganning), dope dealers (Edgar Hayn), white slavers, war profiteers and so forth - and that he gives a large chunk of his profits to charity - would not excuse him to a strict moralist. The success of the Saint books for seventy years must mean that strict moralists are perhaps not as common as one ought to hope."

 

[Warped9]

Looking into the dvd situation. Presently my best bet is to get the Monochrome Set including all 71 original B&W episodes. But since they're Region 2 the only way I can watch them is to get an external dvd drive to watch them on my computer with VLC. The other alternative would be to get a region free dvd player.

Presently it doesn't seem likely that the early episodes will be released on Region 1 dvd anytime soon. Bummer.

 

[Warped9]

Inspired by reading this retrospective book I dug out some of my old Saint books and started reading them again from the beginning. A dust jacket of one of my hardcovers was beat up so I decided to make a new one for it.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ That looks like Frank Sinatra!

 

[Warped9]

^ That looks like Frank Sinatra!

I wanted this dust jacket to look of the period so that's actually the head of Douglas fairbanks Jr. superimposed on Clark Gable's body. I was hoping to evoke Simon Templar as he could have looked like in those days. Candidly I don't really think George Sanders ever really looked the part---he looked rather too soft and ordinary, he just didn't have that edge.

The car is actually a Bentley because as I've learned the Furillac or Hirondel that Templar drove in the books were complete fictions of Charteris' imagination.

When I look back to that time the guys who could have made good Saints onscreen were Glark Gable (sans moustache), Cary Grant and Errol Flynn.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Oh, right, when you said you made it, I thought you just meant re-created the original. Didn't know it was all your own design. Nice one!

As for your casting choices, I've always thought that Flynn or Grant would have made good James Bonds if the series had been filmed earlier than it actually was. Never thought of them as Templar, but yes, that works too.

 

[Warped9]

Bond is a work of the 1950s (print wise) and so Flynn and Grant would have been too old by that time.

Strange, though, but whenever I hear Jo Stafford's '50's era tune "You Belong To Me" I always envision it as an ideal theme song for a '50's era Bond film.

 

[doubleohfive]

I remember liking the Kilmer film when I was younger; I haven't seen it in years but I remember being rather fond of it.

I also have a vague memory of watching an episode or two of the Roger Moore series on VHS -- The Fiction Makers? Something like that, with some British woman constantly talking about swords.

 

[Warped9]

Back in the early '80s I read The Saint And The Fiction Makers. It's a novelization of one of the television episodes, but I remember little of it.

 

[Warped9]

I've just finished watching Vendetta For The Saint which is a television adaptation of a novel. It's not bad, and I really like Roger Moore as Simon Templar, but it's very much of it's era (1969) The book is much better in terms of giving you a rousing adventure.

The TV adaptation suffers from over-the-top '60's era music and what I consider questionable cast choices. For me they just don't come across as good as the ones in the book. I think the adaptation is missing some fine tuning and it ends too abruptly. It also gives away certain things that we really don't need to see right off.

It also should be said that the general consensus is that the best of Moore's Saint adventures were in the early seasons of the TV series. I've got those sets on order and I'm waiting eagerly for them to be delivered any day now.

 

[Warped9]

So Friday I received my first box set of first season episodes, and it's been an experience.

Today some complain about music being too intrusive in some films and television, but it really isn't a new thing. The key distinction is that sometimes the music on older television shows could be a little too obtrusive and over done. That happens at times in these early The Saint episodes. The stories themselves can also be a bit on the slow side in comparison to today---they can take a fair bit of time to set things up. You can sometimes go five or ten minute stretches or so without even seeing Simon Templar onscreen. I will say that while the episodes can be enjoyable I don't think they get as edgy as some of the books. The books also paint the Saint as rather more larger than life, and more proactive. The televised Saint can be a little too much like a '60's era television private investigator. The television Saint also isn't as larcenous or as ruthless as the literary Saint can be.

Roger Moore depicts Simon Templar more in vein of the post war Charteris stories. This Templar is more easy going, more laid back and less energetic than the pre war Saint stories. Templar's identity is also no secret as he seems to be widely recognized. There is some hint of Templar's more active outlaw/criminal past but it's never really acknowledged or elaborated on. This Templar is also generally much friendlier and cooperative with the authorities than the Saint of Charteris' books and stories.

There's another distinction. Charteris wrote the pre war Saint stories when he was in his twenties and so perhaps that's why the early Templar is more energetic and exuberant. Roger Moore is portraying a character in his thirties and thus seems more like the post war Saint that Chateris wrote in his thirties. You can also see the style of writing change as well. The pre war stories tend to be wordier and more adjective laden while the post war stories can be tighter and more succinct.


As to the episodes themselves they're a mixed bag at this point. Quite a few of them could be interchangeable with many run-of-the-mill detective stories. But there are some standouts.

The Talented Husband *** - The Saint is out to get a serial muderer who marries rich women then kills them off to fleece them.

In many ways this is very much like the original story, but I felt Templar seems a little too passive here. We also get to see Templar's cool Volvo P1800.

The Careful Terrorist *** - The Saint is out to avenge the death of a crusading television reporter.

This is quite like the original print story, but I think it's hampered in some measure by some of the cast. The one chosen as Chief Inspector Henry Fernack just doesn't seem right, and he's certainly not as good as Jonathan Hale who played Fernack in the George Sanders' '40's era Saint films. The other letdown is the one cast as the Saint's sidekick, Hoppy Uniatz. Then again the character of Hoppy Uniatz in the '40's era stories always struck me as an idea that didn't really work. I could never envision Simon Templar needing such a dumb-as-shit accomplice and weak comedic foil.

The Covetous Headsman **** - The Saint tries to protect an American woman flying to Paris to meet her long lost brother when it's learned the brother is mysteriously murdered.

So far I think this one is the best. It feels like a Charteris story and it plays out much like one. I don't recall this one in print, and I understand not all the early episodes were adaptations of original Charteris stories, so I can't say how faithful it is. It's pretty good and has some good atmosphere to it.

The Arrow Of God *** - An obnoxious and annoying newspaper columnist is found murdered and a house full of weekend guest are all suspects including the Saint.

There's very much an Agatha Christie feel to this episode and yet it also evokes the original Charteris story. I was disappointed that the method of the columnist's death wasn't more like the print version, but the rest is much the same.

The Element Of Doubt *** - The Saint sets about tricking and trapping a criminal for arson and murder.

I would rate this better if the setup didn't take half the episode, but after that this is much more like the Saint of Charteris' books, or as close as '60's era television would allow him to be.

The Effete Angler **** - Smugglers get nervous even while the Saint is really only interested in some innocent fishing.

Another good outing that feels like a genuine Charteris story. The overall feel and sensibility is there in this adaptation of an original print story.
It also gets points for Simon Templar being more of a rascal and outthinking the guilty minded. For the second time lovely Shirley Eaton (the "golden" girl before she did Goldfinger) guest stars. She previously guest starred as an insurance investigator in "The Talented Husband."


Watching these episodes I can certainly understand how and why Charteris could get so critical over the treatment of some of his stories. They can come across as watered down and even dumbed down to some extent. It also

 

[23skidoo]

Hope you do! I must admit to never having read the books, so my only experience of the character is the Roger Moore version. So I don't know how book-accurate it is. Nonetheless, it is an enjoyable series.

I consider it one of the "big 3" of the 1960s in terms of the UK spy/adventure genre: The Saint, The Avengers and Danger Man.

I have a complete set of the original Charteris books from 1928-1961, plus most of the ones where Charteris was used as a house name thereafter (he edited the books, but other writers did most of the writing - including SF great Harry Harrison, who wrote Vendetta for the Saint under Charteris' name).

For the first few seasons the episodes were loosely based on Charteris' writings, primarily his short stories. One of the cool things about Charteris is he mixed up the formats. He wrote full-length novels, shorter novellas, and numerous short story collections. During the 50s he wrote almost exclusively short stories.

The TV series was more in keeping with that era of the book series. That's because in the first decade or so, the Saint was part of a team in many stories. There was Patricia Holm, who came off as being a little bit psychotic at times (she was also way ahead of her times - in the 1930s to describe a woman who not only lived with her boyfriend but was also tolerant of his dalliances with other women was pretty extreme), and there were occasional "Mike Gambit"-style male partners. Later, Charteris phased out Holm and the others and left Simon with Hoppy, a reformed gangster who served as his right-hand in a number of stories. By the time the "short story era" began, Simon was solo (though characters like Holm would make fleeting appearances).

Fans of the books tend to fall into several camps. Some prefer the longer stories, others prefer the short stories. I find I'm a fan more of the early era, with the Saint being the leader of a gang. I've read about half of the Chartertis series, ending just before the short stories began. I hope to get back into reading them someday.

Later on (talking late 60s and into the 70s) the Saint books for the most part became novelisations of both the Roger Moore and, later still, the Ian Ogilvy Return of the Saint series. One or two also adapted the Saint comic strip. Charteris tried in the 1970s to publish a novel written by a fan (I forget the title) which if I recall was to have brought back Patricia Holm, but he was unsuccessful. Salvage for the Saint was the last Saint book (a full length novel) under Charteris' name; it came out in 1983 I believe.

Barer's book I've had for a number of years. (Trivia: he wrote the novelisation for the Val Kilmer movie and also wrote a privately published novel Capture the Saint in the 1990s). My only disappointment with it is it does at times seem to focus more on the TV series and less on the books, and I'd have appreciated a more book by book approach in the discussion of the literature.

Alex

 

[Captaindemotion]

@ Warped9, I suppose the downplaying of the Saint's larcenous and violent tendencies was inevitable, given the standards of 1960s UK tv. They couldn't have been seen to endorse some of the actions the literary version got up to.

 

[Warped9]

@ Warped9, I suppose the downplaying of the Saint's larcenous and violent tendencies was inevitable, given the standards of 1960s UK tv. They couldn't have been seen to endorse some of the actions the literary version got up to.

That's my sense.

I like that Charteris wrote both short stories as well as novels. It was a nice variety. I like quite a few of the novels, and not all of them were pre war books, but I also liked a book with a collection of short stories yet dealing with the same character. I felt like you got good value for your money being able to enjoy several adventures in one volume.

I generally prefer the pre war Saint, but the writing itself is tighter, less wordy and less adjective laden in the post war stories of the '40s, '50s and '60s. Two of my favourite Saint books are Vendetta For The Saint (a superior novelization of a television episode) and The Saint And The Hapsburg Necklace which was written in the late '60s or early '70s. The Saint And The Hapsburg Necklace was also written in such a way that put Simon Templar back in the 1930s just before the onset of WW2. It has the flavour of Charteris' style yet is tighter and better paced than Charteris tended to write when he was in his twenties.

I'm pretty sure I've read nearly all the Saint stories except for perhaps one or two novels and very few short stories.

 

[Warped9]

The Golden Journey **** - Simon Templar sets out to teach a spoiled socialite a lesson in humility and common decency.

The original print story was set in Germany, but for some reason the televised version is set in Spain. No matter because the end result is the same as the Saint strips away a pooled brat's sense of security to teach her some humility. This felt very much like the original story.

The Man Who Was Lucky **** - The Saint sets out to trap a racketeer after the murder of a decent businessman.

The essence of this story feels very much like one of the 1930's era Saint stories only now it's set in the early '60s. And Roger Moore pretty much nails the early Saint's breezy air and confidence. This one was fun. We get to see more of his Volvo P1800 and finally we get to meet Chief Inspector Claud Eustace Teal of New Scotland Yard and it's a fair likeness and depiction of the original print character.

The Charitable Countess **** - The Saint makes a friendly wager with a phoney Countess for the benefit of homeless kids.

Roger Moore is in real form in this one as if Charteris' character has stepped right off the page into a three dimensional person. Fun!!! The villain is even rather likeable to some extent. It would actually be fun to see if the Saint runs into her again.

 

[Warped9]

I've been watching more episodes and I'll post some comments. As the season progresses we get some really good episodes that really ring true to the original stories in general. There are some disappointments such as never being able to have the same actor reprise Chief Inspector Teal. There is one in particular that I thought nailed the character in appearance as well as character and mannerisms, but he only appeared once.

My other small disappointment is Templar's fighting style onscreen. It doesn't gel with how I read it in the books. In print the Saint seemed to have more economy of movement and more effective fighting techniques and not the wildly swinging manner of the TV series. But then a lot of shows back in the day weren't very realistic depicting hand-to-hand. But there are moments that are a riot and look so Saintly.

Overall, though, I'm really enjoying this show and often find myself whistling the Saint tune while I'm working or doing something else. I really like his white Volvo P1800 and we even get to see some neat action scenes with it. It's a nice clean design even by today's standards without a lot of extraneous details that some cars designs were burdened with back then.

My current avatar is a screen grab off one of the dvd's.

 

[Neutral Zone]

I've always liked the Saint, watched when I was a kid, the first time around (sadly shows my age). It's been repeated over the past year or so on ITV4 and it was great to watch. The only let down was that they only showed the colour series. So, I decided to buy both the monochrome and black and white series. I have also watched the Ian Ogilvy series and thought that is a great series but sadly it fell by the wayside after 24 episodes or so.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Re the Teal/ actors comments - I guess this made him the Felix Leiter of The Saint (well, before Jeffrey Wright anyway).

Re the fighting style. Despite Amy Winehouse's 'Tearing men down like Roger Moore' line in 'I'm No Good', Rog just never could cut it in a fight sequence.

Apparently the reason why the Bond fight scenes in the Connery era were so much more convincing than the Moore years was down to the actors themselves. Connery had no hesitation in throwing a punch at stuntmen, reasoning that it was their job, they got paid for it and if they didn't know how to dodge or roll with the punches, they were in the wrong job. Whereas Moore was so terribly nice, he worried awfully about hurting someone and threw punches like an old lady!

 

[Warped9]

I picked up a dvd set called The George Sanders Saint Collection. It features five films starring George Sanders as Simon Templar.

I had seen some of these before some years ago on TCM, but it's interesting to see these so soon after watching the early episodes of Roger Moore as The Saint.

Sanders wasn't the first on film (or the last) to be play the role on film, but he was the most prolific and the most remembered of that era. So far I've watched The Saint Strikes Back (1939), The Saint In London (1939) and The Saint's Double Trouble All of them appear to be based on original Charteris stories.

In all of them Sanders isn't bad as Simon Templar, but the overall impression is tainted for me. Firstly there is something about his voice that doesn't ring true for me. He sounds too sophisticated even when he's trying not too. He doesn't look athletic enough and his facial features seem a bit soft. But in fairness I'm seeing this from a contemporary perspective and not through the sensibilities of how masculinity was defined back in the '30s and '40s. The films also come across as lighter fare and Simon's darker side isn't seen here like it is in the books. His criminal side is also played down even though it's referenced. In these films he's quite chummy with the police as best evidenced with his relationships with Inspectors Fernack and Teal.

All that said I think Sanders is much better than Louis Hayward who played Simon Templar in the first Saint film The Saint In New York. Hayward seems game but not convincing and the actor was too short. Sanders at least had better stature and his performances are more polished and natural.

Of the three films I've seen so far I like The Saint's Double Trouble best. It feels most like Charteris' books of the era. But all three have so far nicely shown the Saint's sense of whimsical humour.

Still, I can't get away from feeling that these still pale to Roger Moore's efforts. He just seems born to it as if he'd stepped right off the pages of the original stories.

 

[Samurai8472]

Apparently the reason why the Bond fight scenes in the Connery era were so much more convincing than the Moore years was down to the actors themselves. Connery had no hesitation in throwing a punch at stuntmen, reasoning that it was their job, they got paid for it and if they didn't know how to dodge or roll with the punches, they were in the wrong job. Whereas Moore was so terribly nice, he worried awfully about hurting someone and threw punches like an old lady!

Gosh imagine Connery's bond taking down Kananga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBncb56Z_xI

Ofcourse Connery's fight tended to be sped up to add more excitement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B20JnEhfyk