• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Sabotage of Tom Riker

^
Good points you made.

The episodes that I mentioned occurred in the first two seasons. The "Justice" episode was an early season 1 story. The way Picard handled the situation in "Justice" affected my opinion of Picard whenever Picard made a righteous speech about noninterference later on in the series.

In the case of Riker destroying those clones, I don't think a viewer would necessarily have to know too much intricate details of TNG up to that point in order to sense that destroying (potential) lifeforms may be questionable. Picard made it a point to do no harm to life throughout TNG.

I understand your point. But when an aspect of a story is more or less blatantly inconsistent with what came before, it kind of stands out.

I agree with you. Sometimes it's so blatantly absurd as to be laughable. Why was Riker not subject to Mariposan law when for example Janeway was ready to sacrifice B'elanna's mind for some stupid thought-crime law that seems to have been concocted by Big Brother himself. Why is it ok for an admiral to berate Picard for passing on an opportunity to use Hugh to infect the Borg collective when only a few years later Sisko was horrified to learn that 31 had used Odo pretty much the same way to infect the founders. Why did Sisko punch Garak for killing the Romulan ambassador for being a serious monkey wrench in the war effort and only a few months later practically ordered Worf to kill Gowron for the same reason?

These are serious contradictions and there are many more of them. I found these without even stopping to think about it.
 
But there was a personal reason in this instance. Riker felt violated. And he was right about that. The Mariposans cloned him without his consent. But does two wrongs make a right?
My point was that we know of our characters that they don't routinely execute living beings, only based on their personal reasons. That coupled with the fact that the episode never presents the clones as alive or even suggests that they are alive, we can safely determine that our characters aren't killing beings, right then

I'm going to have to start making my posts in long, unbroken, single paragraphs, so people have a harder time taking excerpts of what I've written out of context lol. :lol: Speaking of taking things out of context, you're taking that whole incident out of context
Apparently the Mariposans didn't have the abiltity to enforce their law against Riker, so Will got away with it. Plus the mariposans probably committed a crime as well when they took Will's Dna without his consent. I suppose, with that in mind, the Mariposans let bygones be bygones.
That's all supposition. Nothing was said to indicate that any of that happened
In "Justice", Picard openly admitted that he would be violated the prime directive if he were to save Wesley's life. He had a personal stake in the matter, especially with Beverly nagging at him. As you know, Picard went on to violate the prime directive.

In "Pen Pals", Picard had no problem with letting that alien girl and her people perish because of the prime directive, but Data had a personal stake in the matter. Ultimately, Picard allowed Data and the Enterprise to intervene to save the girl's planet and people, it seemed, as a favor to Data.

In the case of Riker's clone, I don't doubt that Picard was sympathetic to Riker and so did not raise any issues with Riker destroying the clones.
And yet, in those other cases, an entire episode is dedicated to openly addressing their ethical conflicts. However, not only don't they afford a whole episode to addressing this Mariposan situation of Riker incinerating the material in two of their cloning pods, it doesn't even get brought up, ever again, by either party, in the very episode it's in. The context suggests it is of no consequence

BTW, he didn't intervene in Pen Pals as a favor to Data. He did so because it was the ethical thing to do
When the Mariposan prime minister burst into the lab and saw Will destroying the clones, he yelled out "Murderers!"
Ok, so here's your point, I'd think. Bear in mind, Will is the only guy here brandishing a recently fired weapon. So, there's only one so called murderer, but Granger calls them all murderers, & he does so because the issue at hand is not the destruction of the gestating clone bodies. The issue is that they are going to die out without more clones. That's what the rest of the dialog is about. Granger's point, in context, is that by actively denying them clones, all of them are murderers, killing ALL the Mariposans, by not letting them steal DNA. The actual incineration of those two clones wasn't even addressed as a crime itself, by anyone, because the conversation isn't about that.

& even if you can conveniently single out the one word, from a biased source, taken out of context to the scene, & say he actually meant the present destruction of those two clones, how is that a solid basis to say that it's actually true? It's one biased guy's remark. He'd probably say phasering those things was murder, even if they were still goo in a petri dish, because he already considers them an important part of their society. That dude's claim holds no credibility, no matter what he meant, because we can't trust what he says

And... everything else in the episode points to it being either an inaccurate claim, or a completely unrelated comment about the crew being complicit in Mariposan extinction.

Bah... I should shut up now. This is all kind of off topic
 
Tom Riker got his life screwed up twice. Once by accident and the second time by getting himself in an impossible situation that sent him in a Cardassian prison!

That's really bad luck when you stop to think about it.
 
My point was that we know of our characters that they don't routinely execute living beings, only based on their personal reasons. That coupled with the fact that the episode never presents the clones as alive or even suggests that they are alive, we can safely determine that our characters aren't killing beings, right then.

Yet Riker is known to "kill beings" as part of his adventures, and apparently as part of his job. He puts an end to Yuta's misery in "Vengeance Factor", and the people around him react positively to the execution. He is heavily involved personally, but he's also the man on the spot and won't shirk away from his responsibilities for that reason alone.

Just as you point out in this case, though, the key element in the surprising events is that the matter of killing is immediately dropped by all parties involved. Life goes on, and even the next-of-kin either acquiesce or approve.

BTW, he didn't intervene in Pen Pals as a favor to Data. He did so because it was the ethical thing to do

Worth pointing out also is the fact that there isn't a single line that would suggest Picard would ever have considered not intervening. He convenes a meeting to discuss Data's insubordination, and invites open expression of opinions. Riker, true to his nature, volunteers as the Devil's advocate, always being eager to demonstrate, be it philosophy, romance or violence. The discussion ends on the note that the PD isn't an empty letter and Data thus shouldn't go unpunished - at which point Data goes into histrionics and opens the channel to Sarjenka, perverting the impression we got of what just got discussed.

That's TNG at the root: people of the future have different passions, and there may in fact be truth to Crusher's early utterance that the very attitude towards death is different. Recognizable drama may unfold nevertheless, and fates we may consider callous or unfair just reflect a different moral code, similar to that present in quality period drama (and absent from the other sort of period drama).

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yet Riker is known to "kill beings" as part of his adventures, and apparently as part of his job. He puts an end to Yuta's misery in "Vengeance Factor", and the people around him react positively to the execution. He is heavily involved personally, but he's also the man on the spot and won't shirk away from his responsibilities for that reason alone.

Just as you point out in this case, though, the key element in the surprising events is that the matter of killing is immediately dropped by all parties involved. Life goes on, and even the next-of-kin either acquiesce or approve.
Part of his job maybe, but despite however personal his relationship with her was, he did not kill her for personal reasons. The incorrect suggestion that he killed his already living Mariposan clone implies that he would or did murder someone, solely for his own personal reasons, because we all can safely surmise that the theft of his DNA would not warrant murder within Starfleet. So people are claiming he "Killed" it, because he didn't want to let it continue living, when the simple reality of the episode is that there was nothing alive there to kill yet.
 
Yet it's difficult to see professional being separated from personal in "Vengeance Factor": Riker guns down Yuta not because she would be an immediate threat (she's harmless - the previous stun blast already all but stopped her and nobody is in any danger any longer), but because she's better off dead. It's Riker's judgement call there, euthanizing rather than capturing Yuta. And if he is entitled to such judgement calls as part of his profession, both the argument "He murdered clones in hot blood, making a personal decision!" and the argument "He did nothing controversial, and it was the plaintiff who was hot-blooded and confused there" can be carried.

At the same time, even, and in no contradiction: if a Starfeet officer is not just the judge, the jury and the executioner but also the on-the-spot legislator, Riker can do no wrong even in theory. But it's easier to plead future morals and laws there, without needing to claim that Riker acted without passion.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't think I agree. When Riker disintegrates Yuta she still was on her way to kill whatshisface and she likely would have. She was so determined to kill him that even near death wasn't enough to stop her.
 
Are we back on that issue again, where everybody glosses over the fact that the Mariposan clones weren't clones yet? Because one guy, who's perspective is clearly biased, calls it clone murder, doesn't mean it actually was. They were unfinished clones, & I'm not entirely sure he was even speaking specifically about the clones, but rather "Murder" as in what the result would be to their society if they were denied the opportunity to finish the clones
Just take it from the experts

How can you say that the clones were not clones yet? The human life cycle begins with a single fertilized egg cell which begins dividing and multiplying into thousand, billions, billions, and eventually trillions of cells to make a complete human body.

The clones's cells had were clearly been dividing and multiplying for a while and they already had trillions of cells and were about the size of full grown humans. Thus the clones had already begun the human life cycle and were already clones.

in what way? Bajorans send those convicted of murder to be executed on Klaestron IV. The Federation has no death penalty. Or indeed any penalty whatsoever, except for the ancient crime of illegal genetic manipulation, which carries a jail sentence...

In any case, Riker is entitled to commit murder: he's a soldier and a police officer in the same package. Odo is only the latter, so he might have more difficulty establishing the legality of his life-taking actions. Or then less. Timo Saloniemi

You are wrong about Bajor. Bajor doesn't convict people of committing crimes on Bajor and sentence them to be sent to Klaestron IV to be executed. In the episode "Dax" an official from Kalestron IV claimed that: 1) Curzon Dax had committed murder on Kaestron IV and 2) that Jadzia Dax was the same person as Curzon Dax. The official requested that Jadzia Dax be extradited to Klaestron IV to be tried, convicted, and executed for murder. And Bajor head a hearing to consider the extradition request.

Those who are merely human should check the facts before relying on faulty human memories.
 
Last edited:
How can you say that the clones were not clones yet? The human life cycle begins with a single fertilized egg cell which begins dividing and multiplying into thousand, billions, billions, and eventually trillions of cells to make a complete human body.
Under normal human reproduction, & under normal real life cloning procedures, that begin by cloning the cells & maturating them as you would a normal human organism. These clones are in no way being created the way real life clones are. They appear as though they're being maturated fully grown. Don't conflate what we do in our cloning to what they're doing.

This is a science fiction cloning process... a wholly fictional process, wherein we actually are shown the unformed cellular structure of the clones in their pods. Parts of them still look like some kind of gelatinous jello molds. If their organs are still being formed in some way, then human biological processes are unlikely to be operating. They are just really big Riker & Pulaski looking blobs of human shaped stuff, with no functional life yet. Why should anyone think there's life going on in something that has no living functions, because the organs necessary for such are not formed yet... least of all when no one in the episode has actually said they are alive? Any assumption that they are alive, is just that, an assumption

No living clone looks like this. http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x18/upthelongladder_hd_349.jpg
Real life clones are cloned at the cellular level & grown the same way a real living organism does. That's not what's happening here, & therefore there's no reason to assume they are living
 
Last edited:
The clones were still maturing, Riker and Pukaski decided to abort their unborn offspring, it's a non issue as far as I'm concerned.
 
Or it depends on how far along the clone is and if it can survive outside the cloning chamber yet

You're making a parallel with pregnancy but that's a completely different issue. In pregnancies, it's about a woman's ownership of her own body. Riker didn't own the cloning chamber.

Even if you are the father of a fetus, you have no right to decide whether it will live or be aborted, only a pregnant woman does.
 
Killing Will and replacing him w/ Tom was the perfect solution for how to keep Frakes on the show even though Will's character arc was over. IMO, the writers should've had the chutzpah to do just do it.
 
You are wrong about Bajor. Bajor doesn't convict people of committing crimes on Bajor and sentence them to be sent to Klaestron IV to be executed. In the episode "Dax" an official from Kalestron IV claimed that: 1) Curzon Dax had committed murder on Kaestron IV and 2) that Jadzia Dax was the same person as Curzon Dax. The official requested that Jadzia Dax be extradited to Klaestron IV to be tried, convicted, and executed for murder. And Bajor head a hearing to consider the extradition request.

Which means Bajor is willing to hand over people to be executed. If a nation on Earth today opposes the death penalty, it refrains from doing that; criminals who risk getting executed may rather walk free than get sent to be convicted in the unacceptable fashion, then.

The Bajoran theocracy isn't my favorite when it comes to justice systems. It need not be utterly barbaric, though. But certainly it still has a long way to go before reaching the UFP level of acceptability, as viewed from the West today.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't think I agree. When Riker disintegrates Yuta she still was on her way to kill whatshisface and she likely would have. She was so determined to kill him that even near death wasn't enough to stop her.
What we don't really know is what would have happened had Riker continue to hit her with less than lethal phaser blasts. Since she was clearly affected by phaser fire, It's reasonable to speculate that additional shots or a single more prolonged shot could have incapacitated her. Much like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know but thanks to trekbbs some people can concoct BS theories about it till the cows come home. :p
Hi Harry. :razz:
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top