The transporter accidents are more bizarre though.
The Sabotage of Tom Riker
- Thread starter Mojochi
- Start date
The transporter accidents are more bizarre though.
...There's a bizarreness of its own in how exactly the shuttles crash. The precious prop is basically never physically damaged in these high-speed impacts; sometimes it's buried halfway in bedrock and none the worse for the wear. Which is what we'd expect of spacecraft capable of thousands of gees and protected by structural integrity field magic, and what we see explicated when great starships fly through mountains in the better-funded movies. But sorta bizarre anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I don't get why the shuttles crash at all. These things should be heavily computerized and it should be nearly impossible to crash them even if you want to. We already have automated cars that are much safer than the driven ones. In the future, it's likely that a pilot's role will be reduced to tell the shuttle where he wishes to go.
I don't think it's done with a "little" debriefing. 8 Years out of the field is a lot - especially in an organization like Starfleet where things are constantly evolving (just ask doctors or real life astronauts). Does anyone really think starfleet officers graduate from starfleet academy and that's it? I'm pretty sure they have to keep taking classes throughout their careers, maybe ten or twenty each year, minimum - this might even be an requirement for promotions. Tom not getting a promotion right away has nothing to do with starfleet being mean.
But they have fantastic doctors. Remember that O'Brien was healed from twenty years in a virtual cell in a matter of weeks. Today that kind of trauma would take a lifetime of psychotherapy to make life tolerable.
O'Brien was out in the sticks, serving on an outpost where the only doctor was his best buddy. He could skip the "making life tolerable" bit and the associated years of therapy so that he could simply get on with his life. Tom Riker wouldn't have that luxury, close to the heart of the UFP civilization.
The simplicity of their controls suggests they work exactly like that, yes.
But why would automation prevent crashes? It's merely better than manual piloting; it won't necessarily do any good in truly demanding circumstances. And shuttles don't seem to have any "passive safety" available: they must fly literally like bricks if losing active propulsion and attitude control. Automation would have its virtual hands full to begin with.
Timo Saloniemi
The simplicity of their controls suggests they work exactly like that, yes.
But why would automation prevent crashes? It's merely better than manual piloting; it won't necessarily do any good in truly demanding circumstances. And shuttles don't seem to have any "passive safety" available: they must fly literally like bricks if losing active propulsion and attitude control. Automation would have its virtual hands full to begin with.
Timo Saloniemi
You are probably right. The way that he treated Tom was merely Will Riker's knee jerk reaction to anyone who reminded him of himself.
"Up the Long Ladder" aired the other night on H&I. I happened to catch it.
In the episode, when Riker made this short speech, it made me think of this thread, which I happened to have read earlier in the day.
"One Will Riker is unique, perhaps even special. But a hundred of him, a thousand of him diminishes me in ways I can't even imagine."
Will Riker definitely had a robust ego. The way Will treated Tom was consistent with Will's character.
Interestingly, Picard didn't object to the way Will dealt with his clone. Throughout their voyages, Picard and the Enterprise crew seem to make a point of not harming any life, not even the dangerous ones like the crystalline entity, yet neither Picard, Riker, nor Pulaski had any problem with destroying the Riker and Pulaski clones.
It was surprising that they didn't see any ethical dilemma in killing those clones.
As Odo noted (in DS9's "A Man Alone"), "Killing your own clone is still murder."
Yes, I think so too. Riker killed his own clone and Killed Pulaski's after she merely nodded, she didn't even bother to give verbal consent.
The only way I can rationalize that one is to imagine that Starfleet regulations don't treat it as murder, but Bajoran laws do.
Which would mean that Bajorans are more civilized than Starfleet.
in what way? Bajorans send those convicted of murder to be executed on Klaestron IV. The Federation has no death penalty. Or indeed any penalty whatsoever, except for the ancient crime of illegal genetic manipulation, which carries a jail sentence.
In any case, Riker is entitled to commit murder: he's a soldier and a police officer in the same package. Odo is only the latter, so he might have more difficulty establishing the legality of his life-taking actions. Or then less.
Timo Saloniemi
In any case, Riker is entitled to commit murder: he's a soldier and a police officer in the same package. Odo is only the latter, so he might have more difficulty establishing the legality of his life-taking actions. Or then less.
Timo Saloniemi
Are we back on that issue again, where everybody glosses over the fact that the Mariposan clones weren't clones yet? Because one guy, who's perspective is clearly biased, calls it clone murder, doesn't mean it actually was. They were unfinished clones, & I'm not entirely sure he was even speaking specifically about the clones, but rather "Murder" as in what the result would be to their society if they were denied the opportunity to finish the clones
Just take it from the experts
Geordi Laforge said:
It wasn't so much the issue of the legality of Riker's destroying the clones that I thought was problematic. Though I would still be curious to know if Riker broke any laws that he would have been subject to when he killed those clones.
Throughout the Enterprise's journeys, Picard made it point to do no harm to any life that he and the Enterprise encountered. Using Picard's own standards and m.o., neither he nor Riker nor Pulaski seemed to have followed their own principles, let alone what the law might have been.
I get that the cloning was done without Riker's or Pulaski's consent. In fact, they let it be known that they opposed being cloned. Nevertheless, the deed was done. The cloning process may not have been complete when Riker destroyed them, but they were at least at the stage where Riker could recognize their faces as clones of him and Pulaski.
Didn't Picard, Riker or Pulaski see any ethical dilemma in destroying those clones, a potential if not actual lifeforms? Did Picard fail to uphold his own moral standard, apart from whether Riker may or may not have broken the law?
Throughout the Enterprise's journeys, Picard made it point to do no harm to any life that he and the Enterprise encountered. Using Picard's own standards and m.o., neither he nor Riker nor Pulaski seemed to have followed their own principles, let alone what the law might have been.
I get that the cloning was done without Riker's or Pulaski's consent. In fact, they let it be known that they opposed being cloned. Nevertheless, the deed was done. The cloning process may not have been complete when Riker destroyed them, but they were at least at the stage where Riker could recognize their faces as clones of him and Pulaski.
Didn't Picard, Riker or Pulaski see any ethical dilemma in destroying those clones, a potential if not actual lifeforms? Did Picard fail to uphold his own moral standard, apart from whether Riker may or may not have broken the law?
Maybe they didn't tell him. 
Soldiers are not entitled to commit murder. Where do you get this Kooky idea from?
Odo said that killing your own clone is still murder which doesn't leave room for interpretation, I am pretty sure that if he meant "according to Bajoran law" he would have said so. The station is not under Bajoran law otherwise Sisko would have no authority whatsoever and he would have been the one at Kira's disposal instead of the other way around like it was.
I agree with the idea they weren't fully formed clones yet, it's the only way I can sort of align it with the rest of the series.
In the episode Time Squared, Picard is pretty douchey towards his double as well. I get the feeling if Picard had a transporter double he'd also be impatient and annoyed like Riker was with Tom.
How about two Deanna Troi's both sensing eachother's feelings and stuff?
In the episode Time Squared, Picard is pretty douchey towards his double as well. I get the feeling if Picard had a transporter double he'd also be impatient and annoyed like Riker was with Tom.
How about two Deanna Troi's both sensing eachother's feelings and stuff?
From a script/production point of view, there's only one way for a character to determine, at sight, that there has been a clone made specifically of them, & that's for the clone to somehow resemble them. The Mariposan cloning process is a fictional process that's conceptualization begins there. Make it look like Riker, even though it's not done yet. There are shots of it which clearly indicate that it is still in developmental stages, & that those stages don't resemble anything that could be functional biological life, as of yet.
Couple that with the fact that we know of our characters that they don't just snuff out living things solely for unwarranted personal reasons, & I'm good with the show having us assume they are not alive yet. They do enough to make that clear. The most telling factor being that it is never brought up again, what Riker did specifically to those two would-be clones. Now if he'd opened some doors, & seen three of himself wandering around the halls of their facility, & just started blasting at them, then yes, this would be wholly wrongful, & we can kind of retroactively assume that since he never did that to Tom, he probably wouldn't.
When the Mariposan prime minister burst into the lab and saw Will destroying the clones, he yelled out "Murderers!"
So, I guess killing a clone is not only a crime in Odo's and DS9's jurisdiction but it is also a crime on Mariposa. And since Will was on Mariposa when he committed his acts, presumably Will would have been subject to Mariposan law. At the very least, it would seem that Will did commit crimes under Mariposan law, if not also under Federation/Starfleet laws or regulations.
But there was a personal reason in this instance. Riker felt violated. And he was right about that. The Mariposans cloned him without his consent. But does two wrongs make a right?
Apparently the Mariposans didn't have the abiltity to enforce their law against Riker, so Will got away with it. Plus the mariposans probably committed a crime as well when they took Will's Dna without his consent. I suppose, with that in mind, the Mariposans let bygones be bygones.
It seemed like Picard and Riker had a double standard. When they had a personal or emotional stake in a matter, they made exceptions so as not to have to follow their own (or Starfleet's) principles.
In "Justice", Picard openly admitted that he would be violated the prime directive if he were to save Wesley's life. He had a personal stake in the matter, especially with Beverly nagging at him. As you know, Picard went on to violate the prime directive.
In "Pen Pals", Picard had no problem with letting that alien girl and her people perish because of the prime directive, but Data had a personal stake in the matter. Ultimately, Picard allowed Data and the Enterprise to intervene to save the girl's planet and people, it seemed, as a favor to Data.
In the case of Riker's clone, I don't doubt that Picard was sympathetic to Riker and so did not raise any issues with Riker destroying the clones.
The case of Tom Riker was different than the situation with Will's Mariposan clone.
Picard did seem to operate with a double standard at times. When he or a close crew member had a personal or emotional stake in a matter, he was more than willing to violate his or Starfleet's directives and principles.
There's a lot of incoherence in TNG when you look at it too closely. I guess it's owed to the writers not doing their homework of verifying if a new story doesn't violate previously established facts. Some were easily avoidable, others more subtle demanded an intimate knowledge of the series. Maybe we know too much.
^
Good points you made.
The episodes that I mentioned occurred in the first two seasons. The "Justice" episode was an early season 1 story. The way Picard handled the situation in "Justice" affected my opinion of Picard whenever Picard made a righteous speech about non interference later on in the series.
In the case of Riker destroying those clones, I don't think a viewer would necessarily have to know too much intricate details of TNG up to that point in order to sense that destroying (potential) lifeforms may be questionable. Picard made it a point to do no harm to life throughout TNG.
I understand your point. But when an aspect of a story is more or less blatantly inconsistent with what came before, it kind of stands out.
Good points you made.
The episodes that I mentioned occurred in the first two seasons. The "Justice" episode was an early season 1 story. The way Picard handled the situation in "Justice" affected my opinion of Picard whenever Picard made a righteous speech about non interference later on in the series.
In the case of Riker destroying those clones, I don't think a viewer would necessarily have to know too much intricate details of TNG up to that point in order to sense that destroying (potential) lifeforms may be questionable. Picard made it a point to do no harm to life throughout TNG.
I understand your point. But when an aspect of a story is more or less blatantly inconsistent with what came before, it kind of stands out.
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