The Robots From Prototype

[R. Star]

Fair enough. I'd say getting defensive over other people's opinions is unhealthy to say the least, but whatever suits you. Though I would contest that Enterprise gets the most hate. I would encourage you not to use "them" as a collective whole to describe people who don't like Voyager as much as you do though, as if something was wrong with that. Ask a dozen people their opinion, you'll get at least thirteen different answers, so best to take em one at a time.

But to your previous queries... Denara, the problem with making her a reoccurring character is the same with any reoccurring race in Voyager, they're destined to be left behind. Pel did appear briefly in Resolutions to solve the problem of the week though. They went out of their way to make her a non-evil Viidian which is great, but never really demonstrated why she was different or why she put up with the rest of the homicidal maniacs. Maybe if she stuck around for a couple more episodes they could've fleshed her, and the Viidian culture out more but as written she just was a romantic interest for the Doctor.

I liked the Vaskans and Kyrians in Living Witness. While they weren't fleshed out themselves, the social conflict between the two races was. You really don't have to know much about either race in this one shot episode to get a grasp of the conflict and how history can easily be revisionist over the years.

Now, if you'll take me separately from a collective group of "them" and address me as an individual, yes I do find Voyager disappointing. I am critical of it's flaws. No, I don't hate Voyager. If I did, I'd spend my time somewhere else posting. To me Voyager was average in it's own right. It's my third favorite series of the five. I still find it the most disappointing of all of them, not because it's terribly bad, but because it could've been so much more in my opinion. All the parts were there, they were just never executed.

If it's your favorite show, that's great and I wouldn't presume to take away from that. But it is a bit silly to get so defensive over others opinions of it, especially when you're taking the same labels that get you in that state and apply them to the other series as some sort of rebuttal. It's a discussion board after all, that's part of the fun debating the various episodes, characters and issues of them with other people. If everyone agreed, what's the point?

 

[KaraBear]

I've been putting up with them for over 20 years, I think I get them quite well. Them, their double standards, their biased preferences, their lack of patience, the whole load.

Honestly, look around you'll see folks way more willing to take pot shots at Voyager rather than say anything nice about the show. Same goes for anyone who dared to enjoy the show in the first place.

Voyager introduces the Vidiians, audience complains that they lack depth.

Voyager tried to give individual Vidiians with depth, audience complains they shouldn't be giving them depth.

What's the point?

I think you're right, and you can see this on this very board. I was reading a TNG thread about an episode in which someone said the science wasn't really accurate. The majority of the posts that followed were along the lines of "I don't care if the science is off I just want to watch a tv show and be entertained" I've then seen some of those same people post here and rip into Voyager for having a bit of innacurate science

people always complain about Voyager using too much time travel, but when you look at the episodes both TNG and Voyager had the same number of episodes, but nobody complains about TNG doing it.

And the Borg, how often do you hear that voyager ruined the borg, well when Voyager first aired, people RAVED about the Borg episodes. The ratings for any Borg episode were always super high, so peole loved it.

I've noticed a lot here that people who say they like Voyager will only post negative things about the show

 

[KaraBear]

But you of course don't have an attitude at all.

I don't think there is an attitude there, just passion for a show that gets (I think unfairly) trashed a lot

 

[KaraBear]

Fair enough. I'd say getting defensive over other people's opinions is unhealthy to say the least, but whatever suits you. Though I would contest that Enterprise gets the most hate. I would encourage you not to use "them" as a collective whole to describe people who don't like Voyager as much as you do though, as if something was wrong with that. Ask a dozen people their opinion, you'll get at least thirteen different answers, so best to take em one at a time.

But to your previous queries... Denara, the problem with making her a reoccurring character is the same with any reoccurring race in Voyager, they're destined to be left behind. Pel did appear briefly in Resolutions to solve the problem of the week though. They went out of their way to make her a non-evil Viidian which is great, but never really demonstrated why she was different or why she put up with the rest of the homicidal maniacs. Maybe if she stuck around for a couple more episodes they could've fleshed her, and the Viidian culture out more but as written she just was a romantic interest for the Doctor.

I liked the Vaskans and Kyrians in Living Witness. While they weren't fleshed out themselves, the social conflict between the two races was. You really don't have to know much about either race in this one shot episode to get a grasp of the conflict and how history can easily be revisionist over the years.

Now, if you'll take me separately from a collective group of "them" and address me as an individual, yes I do find Voyager disappointing. I am critical of it's flaws. No, I don't hate Voyager. If I did, I'd spend my time somewhere else posting. To me Voyager was average in it's own right. It's my third favorite series of the five. I still find it the most disappointing of all of them, not because it's terribly bad, but because it could've been so much more in my opinion. All the parts were there, they were just never executed.

If it's your favorite show, that's great and I wouldn't presume to take away from that. But it is a bit silly to get so defensive over others opinions of it, especially when you're taking the same labels that get you in that state and apply them to the other series as some sort of rebuttal. It's a discussion board after all, that's part of the fun debating the various episodes, characters and issues of them with other people. If everyone agreed, what's the point?

I have to ask, we're posting on a board about a show. Some peole like the show some peole don't. So if somone says something negative, what's wrong with the people who like the show defending it? Isn't that the point of posting at all? There would be no point in a message board if eveyone had the same thought on everything

Trash the show and it's fine, but defend the show against a negative comment and we're being "unhealthy" and "defensive"

 

[Stoo]

people always complain about Voyager using too much time travel, but when you look at the episodes both TNG and Voyager had the same number of episodes, but nobody complains about TNG doing it.

I have wondered lately, if the earlier shows had similar flaws and yet get less flak for it than Voyager. But if so, there must be some reason, something else that put people off this time around. I'm not sure what. Maybe simply some sort of fan fatigue; a third tv series in a row, and one not doing much different, certainly not as much different as the premise would suggest.

Careful with these claims about "everybody" and "nobody" tho. You're getting into Anwar territory where he shapes his own perception of fandom and then has a good rant at it. Perhaps better to deal directly with what people here say.

(also: you can put multiple quotes in a single post! no need to triple-post).

 

[KaraBear]

people always complain about Voyager using too much time travel, but when you look at the episodes both TNG and Voyager had the same number of episodes, but nobody complains about TNG doing it.

I have wondered lately, if the earlier shows had similar flaws and yet get less flak for it than Voyager. But if so, there must be some reason, something else that put people off this time around. I'm not sure what. Maybe simply some sort of fan fatigue; a third tv series in a row, and one not doing much different, certainly not as much different as the premise would suggest.

Careful with these claims about "everybody" and "nobody" tho. You're getting into Anwar territory where he shapes his own perception of fandom and then has a good rant at it. Perhaps better to deal directly with what people here say.

(also: you can put multiple quotes in a single post! no need to triple-post).

I do think that there was some fan fatigue. Three shows back to back, and even overlapping...I think it would have been bette to have them more spread apart, or at least not overlapping each other

 

[Anwar]

The problem was, even Berman himself knew that having a 3rd Trek show on at the same time as DS9 was a bad idea. But the staff were ordered into it by UPN and Paramount.

If Berman had been left to do what he wanted, they'd have waited until 2000 or so to do Voyager. By then, they'd have more advanced CGI available for altering the ship, they'd have new writers and the time they needed to iron out the conceptual problems the show had and other things.

 

[R. Star]

I have to ask, we're posting on a board about a show. Some peole like the show some peole don't. So if somone says something negative, what's wrong with the people who like the show defending it? Isn't that the point of posting at all? There would be no point in a message board if eveyone had the same thought on everything

Trash the show and it's fine, but defend the show against a negative comment and we're being "unhealthy" and "defensive"

There is difference between defending the show and getting defensive over the issue. The latter involves taking something on a personal level, which is where the unhealthy comment comes from. If you're getting upset because someone doesn't agree with your opinion, I'd have stand by the unhealthy bit.

Defend away, most of our interesting conversations stem from this after all. But I never got the impression you were taking our opinion differences personally.

 

[KaraBear]

I have to ask, we're posting on a board about a show. Some peole like the show some peole don't. So if somone says something negative, what's wrong with the people who like the show defending it? Isn't that the point of posting at all? There would be no point in a message board if eveyone had the same thought on everything

Trash the show and it's fine, but defend the show against a negative comment and we're being "unhealthy" and "defensive"

There is difference between defending the show and getting defensive over the issue. The latter involves taking something on a personal level, which is where the unhealthy comment comes from. If you're getting upset because someone doesn't agree with your opinion, I'd have stand by the unhealthy bit.

Defend away, most of our interesting conversations stem from this after all. But I never got the impression you were taking our opinion differences personally.

no, I don't take it personally...you're not talking about me, just a tv show that went off the air like 15 years ago

but I do get somewhat frustrated when all I see are negative comments and criticisms.

 

[Anwar]

But to your previous queries... Denara, the problem with making her a reoccurring character is the same with any reoccurring race in Voyager, they're destined to be left behind. Pel did appear briefly in Resolutions to solve the problem of the week though. They went out of their way to make her a non-evil Viidian which is great, but never really demonstrated why she was different or why she put up with the rest of the homicidal maniacs. Maybe if she stuck around for a couple more episodes they could've fleshed her, and the Viidian culture out more but as written she just was a romantic interest for the Doctor.

I liked the Vaskans and Kyrians in Living Witness. While they weren't fleshed out themselves, the social conflict between the two races was. You really don't have to know much about either race in this one shot episode to get a grasp of the conflict and how history can easily be revisionist over the years.

Well, a lot of this is due to the inherent problem of Voyager's "Always on the move" premise. It was one of the conceptual flaws I mentioned.

 

[The Overlord]

I've been putting up with them for over 20 years, I think I get them quite well. Them, their double standards, their biased preferences, their lack of patience, the whole load.

That's a nice Straw man you got there.

Honestly, look around you'll see folks way more willing to take pot shots at Voyager rather than say anything nice about the show. Same goes for anyone who dared to enjoy the show in the first place.

Maybe there people out there who wanted to like Voyager better, but found some of the flaws it had hard to overcome. I even think Sfdebris wanted to like Voyager, but often felt it played things too safe for its own good. He has given Voyager episodes 10 out of 10, if he just hated Voyager, no episode would have gotten that high.

That's why he talked about the robots as a missed opportunity, he didn't hate the robots because they were on Voyager, he just didn't feel they were well developed enough and had a silly look, but they had the potentially to interesting reoccurring villain.

Likewise, people don't hate the Kazon because they are on Voyager, they hate the Kazon because they are cheap Klingon knock offs who are not menacing in the slightest.

 

[Anwar]

SFDebris hates the series in its entirety, he just gives occasional good reviews just to hide that.

You can't give a wholly 3-Dimensional alien species in one episode and one episode alone, and Voyager's premise meant no matter what they did they'd get criticized. Either have their aliens be one-shots who aren't 3-Dimensional or have them show up more and then get critiqued because they shouldn't be showing up more than once.

And yes, I do think that if the Kazon were scavengers from the Gamma Quadrant, or if the Vidiians were survivors of some mutating plague the Dominion unleashed, then no one would mind.

Meanwhile if Voyager was about them putting together a Delta Federation to overthrow the Dominion (A Delta Quadrant Empire) then no one would like the story remotely as much as they did in DS9.

 

[Anwar]

Voyager just had conceptual problems that needed to be addressed:

1) Give the show a sustainable plot, the whole "Lost in Space" thing is only workable for about 2 seasons before you really need something else. You wanted a serialized show, then it better have a sustainable plotline.

2) Voyager should either have been some big Cruiser, or an alien Starship or something. All the "Lost Ship" shows of the last 40 years always had the ship in question be some big one (Blakes' Seven, LEXX, Farscape, NuBSG) because the plot works better that way.

3) The whole "Always on the Move" thing crippled their ability to flesh out their surroundings and the aliens therein.

That's just some of the stuff, but fix those points and the show is off to a better start.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I did find it very hilarious how the Pralor and Cravic robots were so polite to B'Elanna (and to each other) in the midst of all this fighting. Gives new meaning to "civil" war...

 

[publiusr]

Very HAL-like that. I suppose it was a kindness...

 

[Melakon]

They probably would have worked better as androids, but for some reason Berman-era Trek seemed to take the position that Soong-androids were the only ones in existence anywhere in the universe. No Old Ones technology androids like Ruk, no Mudd androids, no Reena Kopecs, etc. 24th century androids all seemed to have positronic brains exclusively. But we got a lot of holographic characters who seemed to fill roles that might have previously been filled by androids, like Leland Orser's character in "Revulsion", or even the EMH.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm about 2/3 of the way through this episode, and I have to say that I wouldn't really classify the Pralor and Cravic robots as villains. They're certainly the antagonists of the episode, but the words 'villain' and 'antagonist', while usually associated with one another, aren't actually the same thing.

As for the question of them being brought back for future episodes, I don't really see what the point would've been even though I liked them.

 

[Lord Manitou]

I think the Makers were rather preferential in engineering their robot. All components modular. How much could such a unit weigh? Thirty pounds? Tiberius claims that it was a mistake to make a distinct power module but this was a success! Now every unit is inherently different. Of course, if the robots annihilate themselves it would be one big mistake.

 

[Tiberius]

I think the Makers were rather preferential in engineering their robot. All components modular. How much could such a unit weigh? Thirty pounds? Tiberius claims that it was a mistake to make a distinct power module but this was a success! Now every unit is inherently different. Of course, if the robots annihilate themselves it would be one big mistake.

No, I didn't say that. I said that it is flawed. Think of it like this. Let's say each part came in two colours, red and blue. There's one robot that is made entirely of red parts. I can't build a robot entirely from blue parts and expect the power source from the red robot to work in the blue one, according to the episode.

BUT, I can gradually replace each part of the red robot with a blue part, and it will work the whole time. Eventually the robot that started out as entirely red will be built with only blue parts and it will work. This contradicts what we saw earlier. SO the idea that any part can be swapped out except for the power units is flawed.

 

[Lord Manitou]

So Tiberius is saying this is not a good setup for a robot.This is probably true if at first they killed the race that made them and then war on themselves. Why they need such a special power unit (runnnin on warp plasma) when it only should take electricity to power the stupid thing. My refrigerator runs on electricity.