The Return of THE Law and Order

[ATimson]

Fontana changed because fans really, really didn't like both his demeanor and the constant hint-dropping that he was a crooked cop, but it wasn't until the end of his first season (15; Orbach left after 14 and Farina only worked two years) that the character really started shifting to just a sarcastic wise-cracker.

Oops. I tried to double-check the seasons, but I still got it wrong! Thanks for pointing that out.

I mean, most shows don't come roaring out of the gate, but I'll give it a few more shots.

True, most shows don't, but this is ostensibly season 21 of an existing show. (Although I just looked, and the new showrunner's only prior mothership episodes were in S15-17, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence.)

 

[Timby]

True, most shows don't, but this is ostensibly season 21 of an existing show. (Although I just looked, and the new showrunner's only prior mothership episodes were in S15-17, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence.)

Yep. And Rick Eid's work on Chicago PD has been very heavy on copaganda. His involvement has bothered me ever since it was announced.

 

[Admiral2]

And, yes, season 17 is unwatchable, both for the scripts and Milena Govich being an unbelievably terrible actor. It's a miracle the show didn't get canceled after that year.

Well, I guess Dick Wolf thought she was good for something because she's been writing and directing for Chicagoverse and FBIverse shows.

 

[Timby]

Well, I guess Dick Wolf thought she was good for something because she's been writing and directing for Chicagoverse and FBIverse shows.

Yeah, I'm aware of that; not sure what it has to do with my judgment of her acting abilities.

 

[Random_Spock]

Yep. And Rick Eid's work on Chicago PD has been very heavy on copaganda. His involvement has bothered me ever since it was announced.

Yea, haven't been thrilled with that. SVU is more like that these days, same with OC. Ever since Fred Thompson's days on L and O, the show has taken a more decidedly right wing turn. Regardless of what DW says.

 

[Starbreaker]

I haven't watched Chicago PD since the pilot and the occasional crossover episode, but isn't that whole precinct corrupt or have they gone away from that?

 

[Admiral2]

Yeah, I'm aware of that; not sure what it has to do with my judgment of her acting abilities.

I happen to agree with your judgment of her acting abilities. All I'm saying is Wolf (and a couple other producers) seem to find her more useful behind the camera. I was just making an off hand comment. Truce, okay?

In fact, I've always suspected that Govich's performance was the reason L&O's creators never tried another actress in the detective pairing, even though there has been an actress in the prosecutor pair since Richard Brooks left. It's arguable that they sabotaged themselves, though. Govich's character was written to be unlikable. I don't think a better actress could have counteracted that.

I haven't watched Chicago PD since the pilot and the occasional crossover episode, but isn't that whole precinct corrupt or have they gone away from that?

The only real corrupt cop has always been Hank Voight. He has a corrupting influence on his Intelligence Unit - the precinct's detective squad - but the 'whole precinct' is no more corrupt than any other government entity in Chicago.

 

[Timby]

The only real corrupt cop has always been Hank Voight. He has a corrupting influence on his Intelligence Unit - the precinct's detective squad - but the 'whole precinct' is no more corrupt than any other government entity in Chicago.

Ehhhhhhh. I've seen every episode of PD several times over, and almost every character crosses the line into corruption, and it's largely presented in an "ends justify the means" manner. Beyond Voight (whose character has been drastically softened since he flat-out murdered his son's killer in season 3), Ruzek idolizes him and is happy to break every rule in the book, same with Upton, Halstead has flipped over to the dark side, Lindsay shoved her gun down a suspect's throat, we don't even need to get into some of the really shady shit Al Olinsky did, even Dawson did some really bad shit despite being the purported conscience of the unit.

Arguably, the only good-ish officers in the unit are Burgess and Atwater, and they both have their own ghosts in their closets, they're just ... less-evil ghosts. (Platt doesn't count, as she isn't in Intelligence, and even she tried to extrajudicially murder someone.)

Even though I live in Iowa, now, I grew up in Chicago and I know how shitty the bureaucracy there is, but the Intelligence unit in Chicago PD is kind of a caricature. And that's why I was incredibly uneasy when Rick Eid was announced to be running season 21 of Vanilla.

 

[Admiral2]

Ehhhhhhh. I've seen every episode of PD several times over, and almost every character crosses the line into corruption, and it's largely presented in an "ends justify the means" manner. Beyond Voight (whose character has been drastically softened since he flat-out murdered his son's killer in season 3), Ruzek idolizes him and is happy to break every rule in the book, same with Upton, Halstead has flipped over to the dark side, Lindsay shoved her gun down a suspect's throat, we don't even need to get into some of the really shady shit Al Olinsky did, even Dawson did some really bad shit despite being the purported conscience of the unit.

Arguably, the only good-ish officers in the unit are Burgess and Atwater, and they both have their own ghosts in their closets, they're just ... less-evil ghosts. (Platt doesn't count, as she isn't in Intelligence, and even she tried to extrajudicially murder someone.)

Even though I live in Iowa, now, I grew up in Chicago and I know how shitty the bureaucracy there is, but the Intelligence unit in Chicago PD is kind of a caricature. And that's why I was incredibly uneasy when Rick Eid was announced to be running season 21 of Vanilla.

All true, but I'm willing to cut Halstead some slack because he only flipped to the darkside to make sure Upton was protected from her own actions. Up to then he had been Dawson's replacement as 'conscience of the unit' and was actually better at it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm liking what I see from season 21 so far. A few things:

- Shouldn't this episode be SVU's thing?

- I really could do without that damn wacka-wacka-wacka in the theme music.

- At least they kept the original narration.

- LOVE how they rebuilt the original squad room!

 

[Admiral2]

I'm liking what I see from season 21 so far. A few things:

- Shouldn't this episode be SVU's thing?

I know, right???

- I really could do without that damn wacka-wacka-wacka in the theme music.

I felt the exact same way when they added dueling banjoes to the ENT theme.

- At least they kept the original narration.

It was fantastic to hear before a new episode after so long.

- LOVE how they rebuilt the original squad room!

I completely didn't notice. After so many cop shows a squad room is just a squad room to me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I also noticed that the area around Price's office was very similar to how the offices looked in the pilot episode (Everybody's Favorite Bagman) way back in '88. All those assistants in cubicles with no walls...

 

[ATimson]

Shouldn't this episode be SVU's thing?

I don't think so. While there are sex crimes in the backstory, the actual case at hand is a murder. It's not really SVU's remit.

 

[Admiral2]

I don't think so. While there are sex crimes in the backstory, the actual case at hand is a murder. It's not really SVU's remit.

SVU - the TV version anyway - has solved plenty of murders over its run. The murder of a man accused by forty women of sexual assault would be right up its alley.

 

[SAndrews10]

I like how the DA’s office is the same but it’s vastly different now in the aesthetics and architecture in the DA offices on SVU.

 

[Timby]

I don't think so. While there are sex crimes in the backstory, the actual case at hand is a murder. It's not really SVU's remit.

Probably at least half of the cases on SVU in the last decade aren't in the established remit.

Something I noticed after another re-watch of the Vanilla premiere is how blown-out the lighting is. It's really a sharp change from how the sets used to be lit (and while I know they're shooting in 4K now, that's not a reason for all of the highlights to be blown out like this, it's a poor cinematographic decision).

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This might seem like a subtle nitpick, but when combined with other things that bother me, it starts making a big difference.

 

[vandevere]

I think the old episodes made use of natural light as much as possible...

 

[Timby]

I think the old episodes made use of natural light as much as possible...

They were shot on soundstages, same as the new run. It's just lit and shot very differently and, I would argue, worse.

 

[Admiral2]

Well, I would say that episode two was a slight improvement. The music was dialed down, Cosgrove was less assholish, Camryn Manheim was still meh, though McCoy seemed a little steadier on his feet. Probably had an extra shot of coffee before his scenes.

The only one I was really worried about was Price. When you look like a bigger asshole than Cosgrove when questioning the defendant on the stand, you know you overstepped, and he pretty much set himself up for it with his jury selection plan. I hope his tenure isn't plagued by a mistake-of-the-week curse.

 

[Danny99]

Frankly, I would've led with this episode instead of throwing the Carey Lowell element into the first episode. It just seemed like overload for an opener.

That being said, after watching Rachelle Lefevre for two years on Under The Dome, I just couldn't buy her as a criminal mastermind tech science genius.