The Refrigerator Theory

[teya]

I don't think it's so much that rape/abuse shouldn't be brought up. It's how often and for what reasons they're brought up that could be the problem.

Anyway, this theory seems to be speaking more about the undignified deaths of powerful female heroes, and how they're only used to further the stories of the male ("real") heroes. This isn't really about abuse. I would again say that VOY, the TV show, doesn't really have this problem. The PB books absolutely do.

Thing is, the real story of *any* death is the impact it has on the living. Doesn't matter if it's a glorious death in battle or a quiet death at home.

Yeah, that is true. But how often is the one who dies a female? And how often is it that that death is the turning point for some male hero? Someone noted that "Full Circle," much as I think it's accurate to the characters, falls into this pretty nicely.

Spoiler: Full Circle

Chakotay goes bananas after Kathryn dies. He drinks, becomes withdrawn, throws Voyager headlong into danger, and basically changes the whole direction of his life. Kathryn, the main character of the TV series, was fridged for some Chakotay character development. Beyer, (who clearly liked the characters) had to work with what she had been given, of course, but the whole story still became a bit of a stereotype. The female hero is out of the picture, and room is made for the real heroes. B'Elanna also spends most of the time stuck in a shuttle playing Mom while Tom plays First Officer and does all the "real work."

Well, granted, I'm a female and my sweetie was a male, but I would argue that being widowed was a turning point in my life--and yes, in a positive way.

I don't think that the experience of death is a particularly male or female thing. We all change when we lose a loved one.


ETA: I'd estimate that the one who dies is female roughly 50 percent of the time...

 

[Dancing Doctor]

They do okay. (Spoilers)

The Vanguard series, for example, has a Commander Atish Khatami becoming the CO of the Constitution-class starship U.S.S Endeavour after its previous CO is KIA.

However, the first book in the series has the female CO of the Miranda-class starship U.S.S Bombay killed, with all hands, during a battle with Tholian ships...although she does kick their butts pretty badly.

Interestingly, we see the lesbian lover of the Vulcan Starfleet Intelligence Officer on the starbase get fridged.

Yeah, I had to rethink what I wrote, there. I think there's some great non-main female characters... it's more the main female characters in TV Trek (outside of DS9 and VOY) that get the short shrift.

Oh agreed.

 

[froot]

Thing is, the real story of *any* death is the impact it has on the living. Doesn't matter if it's a glorious death in battle or a quiet death at home.

Yeah, that is true. But how often is the one who dies a female? And how often is it that that death is the turning point for some male hero? Someone noted that "Full Circle," much as I think it's accurate to the characters, falls into this pretty nicely.

Spoiler: Full Circle

Chakotay goes bananas after Kathryn dies. He drinks, becomes withdrawn, throws Voyager headlong into danger, and basically changes the whole direction of his life. Kathryn, the main character of the TV series, was fridged for some Chakotay character development. Beyer, (who clearly liked the characters) had to work with what she had been given, of course, but the whole story still became a bit of a stereotype. The female hero is out of the picture, and room is made for the real heroes. B'Elanna also spends most of the time stuck in a shuttle playing Mom while Tom plays First Officer and does all the "real work."

Well, granted, I'm a female and my sweetie was a male, but I would argue that being widowed was a turning point in my life--and yes, in a positive way.

I don't think that the experience of death is a particularly male or female thing. We all change when we lose a loved one.


ETA: I'd estimate that the one who dies is female roughly 50 percent of the time...

Well, in real life, yes, that is how it works - but this theory is more about how often it happens in pop culture, and that the woman is usually the one six feet under. It's not that lives don't change when loved ones die or anything, it's more that this same scenario is brought up quite often in fiction. The females, often fully-developed characters in their own right, are killed off and simply used as character development for the men.

PS: I am sorry to hear of your experience.

 

[teya]

Yeah, that is true. But how often is the one who dies a female? And how often is it that that death is the turning point for some male hero? Someone noted that "Full Circle," much as I think it's accurate to the characters, falls into this pretty nicely.

Spoiler: Full Circle

Chakotay goes bananas after Kathryn dies. He drinks, becomes withdrawn, throws Voyager headlong into danger, and basically changes the whole direction of his life. Kathryn, the main character of the TV series, was fridged for some Chakotay character development. Beyer, (who clearly liked the characters) had to work with what she had been given, of course, but the whole story still became a bit of a stereotype. The female hero is out of the picture, and room is made for the real heroes. B'Elanna also spends most of the time stuck in a shuttle playing Mom while Tom plays First Officer and does all the "real work."

Well, granted, I'm a female and my sweetie was a male, but I would argue that being widowed was a turning point in my life--and yes, in a positive way.

I don't think that the experience of death is a particularly male or female thing. We all change when we lose a loved one.


ETA: I'd estimate that the one who dies is female roughly 50 percent of the time...

Well, in real life, yes, that is how it works - but this theory is more about how often it happens in pop culture, and that the woman is usually the one six feet under. It's not that lives don't change when loved ones die or anything, it's more that this same scenario is brought up quite often in fiction. The females, often fully-developed characters in their own right, are killed off and simply used as character development for the men.

PS: I am sorry to hear of your experience.

Thanks.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I prefer my fictional characters to be like real people. That's what I love about sci fi--to see how human beings navigate a world that's beyond my experience.


So who they kill off is not an issue for me, so long as they handle it well.


And the last thing I want to see is some 180 reversal of the old male hero stories. I don't want a perfect Janeway who wins every battle and gets the guy in the end and rides off into the sunset with him.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Since rape is a component of many womens' experience, why not show it in fiction? Sure, it's painful to read or view, but it's also *real*.

It surprises me that women would want to exclude that. It feels sadly like shame--something we don't talk about.

Its just as real to see the male be victimized in such a fashion, but we rarely see that and when we do they're probably transgendered and appear "female". (I'm specifically thinking of a L&O SVU show I saw this weekend.)

I recall watching a show on classical movies, and (IIRC) it talked about how they recut "Lawrence of Arabia" to take out the allusion that the hero "Lawrence" was being raped by his male captors. Just because its "real" doesn't mean we want our heroes or heroines victims of it.

 

[kimc]

Well, in real life, yes, that is how it works - but this theory is more about how often it happens in pop culture, and that the woman is usually the one six feet under. It's not that lives don't change when loved ones die or anything, it's more that this same scenario is brought up quite often in fiction. The females, often fully-developed characters in their own right, are killed off and simply used as character development for the men.

Exactly. What's even more frightening is how well this tactic worked for Pocket among the "favored demographic" - which by the way I'm still not convinced is among the majority of Voyager fans but I'm stubborn that way.

I recall watching a show on classical movies, and (IIRC) it talked about how they recut "Lawrence of Arabia" to take out the allusion that the hero "Lawrence" was being raped by his male captors. Just because its "real" doesn't mean we want our heroes or heroines victims of it.

I just heard about this recently. Pretty amazing. Rape is a story that when told is often thru the viewpoint of a character (usually male) close to the victim. Rarely is is it told from the viewpoint of the victim - male or female.

An exception to this is the book "Lovely Bones" as well as another by the same author regarding her own rape experience. Beautiful if disturbing reads.

 

[froot]

Exactly. What's even more frightening is how well this tactic worked for Pocket among the "favored demographic" - which by the way I'm still not convinced is among the majority of Voyager fans but I'm stubborn that way.

I always thought VOY fans were overwhelmingly females of all ages - but maybe that's just colored by my own personal experiences

I suppose numbers don't lie. Why can't we be the favored demographic too? I'll spend extra money to make up for the lack of people...

 

[kimc]

I always thought VOY fans were overwhelmingly females of all ages - but maybe that's just colored by my own personal experiences

Actually that's what I believe too. My personal theory is that someone at Pocket wasn't doing their homework before making the decision to fridge Janeway. I have no numbers - it's a faith thing.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I always thought VOY fans were overwhelmingly females of all ages - but maybe that's just colored by my own personal experiences

Actually that's what I believe too. My personal theory is that someone at Pocket wasn't doing their homework before making the decision to fridge Janeway. I have no numbers - it's a faith thing.

I believed that when I first read Before Dishonor, and I believe that now.

 

[brcarthey]

Tasha Yar was raped while growing up on Turkana IV.

i see .

Yeah.

And, Deanna was literally mind-f**ked in Nemesis, as well as during episodes like Man of the People.

there's also the debate as to whether or not you consider whether or not b'elanna was sexually assaulted in "vis-a-vis" by steth who had morphed into looking like tom.

 

[brcarthey]

I always thought VOY fans were overwhelmingly females of all ages - but maybe that's just colored by my own personal experiences

Actually that's what I believe too. My personal theory is that someone at Pocket wasn't doing their homework before making the decision to fridge Janeway. I have no numbers - it's a faith thing.

I believed that when I first read Before Dishonor, and I believe that now.

well, being a guy, i'm not sure about this argument. however, i do see the point that women seem to suffer a disproportionate number of tragedies than men. i wonder if the writers are somehow trying to mimic the perception of our own media and reality.

anyway, one point i do think after reading BD and hearing that mr. david didn't like janeway is what a heaping conflict of interest that is. if you don't like a character you're going to do everything within your power to write the characterization craptasticly (even go outside of established character parameters) and then either kill the character off or make them come out in a really poor light at the end. IMO, PD is the last author that should've written this novel. but, my next question is why would ms. clark knowingly off a strong female lead when there is a dearth of them in trek already?

 

[Galekarens]

Actually that's what I believe too. My personal theory is that someone at Pocket wasn't doing their homework before making the decision to fridge Janeway. I have no numbers - it's a faith thing.

I believed that when I first read Before Dishonor, and I believe that now.

well, being a guy, i'm not sure about this argument. however, i do see the point that women seem to suffer a disproportionate number of tragedies than men. i wonder if the writers are somehow trying to mimic the perception of our own media and reality.

anyway, one point i do think after reading BD and hearing that mr. david didn't like janeway is what a heaping conflict of interest that is. if you don't like a character you're going to do everything within your power to write the characterization craptasticly (even go outside of established character parameters) and then either kill the character off or make them come out in a really poor light at the end. IMO, PD is the last author that should've written this novel. but, my next question is why would ms. clark knowingly off a strong female lead when there is a dearth of them in trek already?

Well, it appears, from the rather cavalier way Ms. Clark replied to those who protested Janeway's death (more or less "too bad"), that she didn't really consider what fans thought; she wanted KJ dead and that was that. Well, she's gone, too, now, but who knows if there is a chance that the lead character of Voyager might actually be returned (thank goodness Paramount forced the adding of Lady's Q's "rescue" of KJ's spirit, otherwise there might not be any hope at all). PS having PD write KJ's death was probably pretty deliberate, sad.

 

[Thrawn]

I cannot think of another instance in TrekLit in the last decade (and I've read just about all of them) of a recurring female character being killed off only to serve as a turning point in a male character's story. There's an instance mentioned earlier of a character getting "fridged" to provide motivation for another female, but that's pretty much it.

Though, come to think of it, Peter David actually does the reverse in New Frontier, killing off a very main, very male, very powerful character after 20 whole novels in a humiliating way just to create a character arc for a female character.

 

[froot]

I believed that when I first read Before Dishonor, and I believe that now.

well, being a guy, i'm not sure about this argument. however, i do see the point that women seem to suffer a disproportionate number of tragedies than men. i wonder if the writers are somehow trying to mimic the perception of our own media and reality.

anyway, one point i do think after reading BD and hearing that mr. david didn't like janeway is what a heaping conflict of interest that is. if you don't like a character you're going to do everything within your power to write the characterization craptasticly (even go outside of established character parameters) and then either kill the character off or make them come out in a really poor light at the end. IMO, PD is the last author that should've written this novel. but, my next question is why would ms. clark knowingly off a strong female lead when there is a dearth of them in trek already?

Well, it appears, from the rather cavalier way Ms. Clark replied to those who protested Janeway's death (more or less "too bad"), that she didn't really consider what fans thought; she wanted KJ dead and that was that. Well, she's gone, too, now, but who knows if there is a chance that the lead character of Voyager might actually be returned (thank goodness Paramount forced the adding of Lady's Q's "rescue" of KJ's spirit, otherwise there might not be any hope at all). PS having PD write KJ's death was probably pretty deliberate, sad.

Spoilers ahead! Is the whole thread a spoiler zone at this point? :x



It could be that she wanted a female character in place that wasn't Janeway, which is what happened at the end of "Full Circle." Captain Eden took over Voyager from Chakotay. (Even more cute is that Eden's ex-husband, also a new character they placed on Voyager, spent most of that book verbally spitting on Janeway's corpse.)

I think that's the whole thing - I actually would not have minded Janeway dying at the end of the TV series (well, okay, I would have been pretty sad.) It's not so much that strong females cannot die in fiction. It's why they die that matters, and how often they tend to get offed. The way her character was, though, I actually almost expected it. A TV death would have been on Janeway's terms and for her goals, and I don't think would have been "fridging." It would have read more like the ultimate fulfillment of her promise to her people and her need for absolution. It would have been about her, and not about freeing up space for the manly men. Although I'm okay with them letting her live, too.

It was the how and the why of how Janeway died in the books that was so galling. She didn't get to die in her own series, she was killed by an author who hated her, she was basically blown up by the almighty Picard, and her death did damn little except serve to give the male characters some character development. And B'Elanna was stuck on the sidelines most of the time as well. Hell, they even faked her death, too, so she was as good as dead to most everyone in the AQ.

 

[thew40]

I cannot think of another instance in TrekLit in the last decade (and I've read just about all of them) of a recurring female character being killed off only to serve as a turning point in a male character's story. There's an instance mentioned earlier of a character getting "fridged" to provide motivation for another female, but that's pretty much it.

But it wasn't just for Chakotay - it served as turning points for the whole crew and helped introduce new characters. And besides, Janeway may have died . . . but we saw her at the end with Lady Q, leading one to believe that the character will be back.

I think, honestly, it was hard to find a place for Janeway in the Alpha Quadrant. Promoting her to admiral may have seemed like the right thing to do in "Homecoming," but it ended side-lining the character. I believe that this is nothing more than taking the character away, allowing the reader to miss her, and then bringing her back with a new role.

It will be difficult, seeing as how poorly Sisko has been handled since "Unity," but at the same time, I think that Janeway is better off hanging out with Lady Q, exploring the universe. And returning her to the TrekLit universe proper may work out better after having her off the board.

As for the article linked in the first post, I found it full of holes and inaccuracies:

Jadiza Dax may have been killed off in an unheroic fashion, but she was followed up by Ezri Dax, a character who (in TrekLit-verse) became a strong lead character and was one of the big heroes of the Destiny trilogy.

Kes didn't so much die as ascend. "Fury" may have crapped all over her, but the novels "String Theory" sorted that out and redeemed her.

Janeway, I covered.

I concede Yar's death and then second non-death death was pretty bad.

 

[Thrawn]

Oh, I agree; I'm just saying that, even granting that Janeway was "fridged", I have a hard time seeing a pattern. One instance does not a pattern make.

And as you say, much of the problem with Kes's death/whatever was redeemed in the novels, just as Trip's was, and it's not like they could really do anything about Jadzia anyway.

Plus, it took 10 books for Sisko to return, and I'll bet anyone that after 8 more Voyager novels, we'll have seen Janeway again.

I really think this whole thing is taking one debateably shitty editorial decision (giving PAD the job of offing Janeway in a TNG book) and ascribing some absurd motives and connotations to it.

 

[Brit]

Exactly. What's even more frightening is how well this tactic worked for Pocket among the "favored demographic" - which by the way I'm still not convinced is among the majority of Voyager fans but I'm stubborn that way.

I always thought VOY fans were overwhelmingly females of all ages - but maybe that's just colored by my own personal experiences

I suppose numbers don't lie. Why can't we be the favored demographic too? I'll spend extra money to make up for the lack of people...

I can tell you why really easily, because traditional publishers and editors do not believe that women read science fiction, Trek lit included. Even Voyager's producers thought they were producing a television program for teenage boys.

I think that all along females have been overlooked and the typical Trek fan may not be the teenage boy at all but rather females of all ages. I know Trek fans that are pushing 70 years old and some just starting university and they are all female.

Brit

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I think, honestly, it was hard to find a place for Janeway in the Alpha Quadrant. Promoting her to admiral may have seemed like the right thing to do in "Homecoming," but it ended side-lining the character. I believe that this is nothing more than taking the character away, allowing the reader to miss her, and then bringing her back with a new role.

Perhaps. However, we see Picard being offered an Admiralship, and turning it down. And I know that in the new Voyager books we hear about how Janeway had always opposed Project Full Circle, but I don't see why she was written as so inflexible and non-understanding.

It will be difficult, seeing as how poorly Sisko has been handled since "Unity," but at the same time, I think that Janeway is better off hanging out with Lady Q, exploring the universe. And returning her to the TrekLit universe proper may work out better after having her off the board.

Sisko hasn't really made too many appearances as of yet.

As for the article linked in the first post, I found it full of holes and inaccuracies:

Jadiza Dax may have been killed off in an unheroic fashion, but she was followed up by Ezri Dax, a character who (in TrekLit-verse) became a strong lead character and was one of the big heroes of the Destiny trilogy.

That only happened after major changes were made to the character in the novels. Interestingly, she gives up on

Spoiler: Surprise!

her relationship with Bashir, in order to move ahead

I concede Yar's death and then second non-death death was pretty bad.

What really sucked about that is we only hear about her second death...and then her twin-except-for-the-ears daughter pops up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't know how to break it to you Brit, but females who like star trek are better and smarter and cooler than regular females who for the most part because it is expected of them by society watch Grey's Anatomy or bring beer for their husbands who cannot stop watching sport. It's obviously about breaking molds and conventions, which means that men who watch Greys Anatomy are better smarter and cooler than regular lads?

Sure, whatever.

I proclaim this gloomy snapshot of realism as I am surveying through the atrocious pilot for Pretty little Liars which might even be more Dawson's Creek than Vampire Diaries and One tree Hill combined because I misunderstood the advertising. TV intentionally made for a (young) female audience is insipid, sugary, dense and obtuse to say the least, so no wonder those with a sense of wonder would drive out of their wheelhouse to explore dualgender or malecentric programming to explore all this Elle Woods Bullshit.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

it was hard to find a place for Janeway in the Alpha Quadrant.

No, it was hard for writers who know nothing of military or government to think of anything other than 1 ship 1 captain 1 crew.

They didn't know what to do with Admiral Kirk, so they demoted him and put him back on a starship. Then they had him reassure Picard that NOTHING mattered except that ship and that chair and so the authors never had to learn anything beyond that concept. Even though they have "Admirals" in books trying to co-ordinate the Borg war from behind the front lines, these authors have no concept at what they do and so do not respect what they do.

Admiral Janeway could have done for Star Trek what "Starfleet Academy" stories could have done, given us a different perspective on society and a whole different element to the Trek Universe. Alas we are given just more of the same... 1 ship, 1 captain, 1 crew, 1 story told over and over and over again.

If the Admirality was so bad... why do so many officers aspire to it?