Spoilers The Reality War grade and discussion thread

[Qonundrum]

So, that happened. Sadly, the Billie Piper thing got spoiled for here me by careless comments in the RTD thread before it became a spoiler thread, but the Jodie Whitaker thing absolutely stunned me in a good way. Absolutely amazing to see her again.

How many people believed them? They might still have been surprised, if for no other reason than "Dang, the squealer was right!"

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's got people talking.

 

[Evil Robert]

So much to unpack...

Well the landing was stuck better then last year... but then again, not sure what we landed into...

As Tatianna says... Choices...

The Good:

I don't mind how they dealt with Omega. Honestly that in itself worked

Hopefully this is the end of all things Mavity.

The Jodie Whittiker cameo was brilliant. Even for a short scene, RTD wrote her better then Chibnal!

The Mrs. Flood-Rani getting away was good. Maybe she can be the StarScream of this universe, always chickening out (but living another day because of it).

But that leads to...

The meh:

I would've like Archie-Rani to stick around, mainly because Archie is such a great actress and a delight to have on screen.

The Bad:

Way to much time spend on Poppy, the ret-con of the ret-con still didn't quiet set the universe back either.

I also really wish they'd give us an answer on Granddaughter Susan and not just cock-tease us to Kingdom Come. Seriously Carol Anne Ford isn't a spring chicken anymore!

This sterility thing doesn't make too much sense unless it happened just prior to the time war (which in itself might be a good connector of the two). But not going to go there, not going to go there...

Well Rouge (aka SexyMcBritchyPants) is going to be stuck in that hell detention for all of eternity (how very Buffy of him). That one I can't see coming back now.

The final scene...

Sigh...

Look I was hoping Ncuti was going to stick around. I've managed to avoid spoilers, but I've also been watching this show for 20 years, I know how NuWho actors tend to work.

We're going to have Piper/Tennant 2.0 aren't we?

Almost makes me wish for a normal season of Doctor/Companion having just one-off adventures (at least 13 episodes of them!) culminating in another Dalek invasion of Earth.

I kinda just want a solid five year production run with the same Doctor sticking around for five seasons. The fact is these days we can get an actor to stay that many years. It's just the episodes/seasons wilt into vast chasms between little islands.

So see everybody in six months for Christmas I guess?

 

[kirk55555]

I didn't bring it up in my first post, but Belinda really got screwed. She spent the penultimate episode brainwashed, and then this episode she's just randomly "a mom", and literally spends most of the episode in a box. I saw someone online say that this really feels like Ruby was supposed to be the companion this season, and Belinda's role in these last few episodes really do fit Ruby more then her. I honestly think that Belinda got one of the biggest downgrades of any companion with these last two episodes, and it came out of nowhere.

Also, that Mummy design for Omega really sucked, he was literally just Omega in name only, like Sutekh was basically only the character in name as well. I've seen people online this season claim that RTD is "too much" of a Classic Who reference guy, but he really feels like someone who just browses Tardis Wiki looking for characters for his episodes, even though I know he was a fan of Classic Doctor Who when it was on the air.

 

[Evil Robert]

My biggest gripe is sadly I felt like we've not really gotten to know 15 that well. It feels like his story arc is incomplete.

Even 9 with less episodes felt more complete with a concise, beginning, middle and end.

I guess the rumours of Ncuti feeling restricted where true!. Lol. Still doesn't help with lack of episodes either.

Maybe avoid going for an actor that wants to break into Hollywood (or in Ncuti's case, starting to make it), and have one that wants to stick around in ol' Blighty, be a SciFi nerd and enjoy talking to pepperpots in front of wibbly-wobbly walls.

 

[Redfern]

Oh, I'll just note that all three "surprises" really were surprises for me, Whittaker's cameo, Gatwa's regeneration and Piper's reveal. Well, I had stumbled across rumors of Ncuti's departure (primarily via various Tharries' videos addressing that as "rumor") but thankfully no confirmation. But Whittaker's and Piper's appearances, those were flat out genuine for me! Yes, I somehow avoided even rumors of their reveals! Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket?

 

[FredH]

(There’s a part of me that wants to gleefully tweak angry Internet fandom by writing fanfiction about the Billie Piper-faced 16th Doctor running around in Discovery’s late 32nd-century Federation.)

 

[The Wormhole]

A realization: RTD has now written for all modern Doctors with the exception of Peter Capaldi and John Hurt. And in the case of Capaldi, he has appeared in RTD productions, just as different characters. Okay, technically Jo Martin hasn't appeared in an episode written by RTD, but given he likely did script editing and a rewrite on The Story and the Engine, I'll count that.

But if you stick to Doctors who showed up in episodes definitely written by them, RTD is still the modern showrunner who has written for the least amount of Doctors. In order from most to least:

Moffat has written nine Doctors: One, Five, Eight, War, Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve, Fifteen.
Chibnall has written eight Doctors: Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fugitive.
RTD has written seven Doctors: Nine, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen.

Yes, I'm counting Piper as the Sixteenth Doctor.

 

[CaptainWacky]

For the first third of the episode I was enjoying it quite well. Like, yeah, it was a bit of a cheat to get out of the cliffhanger with a literal reset, but that's just RTD for you! At least things were happening and it was fun and it was nice to see Anita again and the Doctor walking in wearing a skirt was cool. The younger Rani was good in her big scene. But then she just dies lass than halfway through the episode, just when it seems like she's really gotten going as a villain. Then Omega's just a big monster guy who the Doctor defeats by...shooting him? With the vindicator? It can do that?

So we need more story for the next half hour and all of it is about remembering then saving Poppy. And, sorry if that makes me heartless, but I couldn't give a fuck about Poppy. You can't just introduce a baby out of nowhere and expect us to care by having everyone say "LOOK HOW AMAZING AND SPECIAL POPPY IS!" And having her be based on the Doctor's memory of a space baby (for some reason!) was just distracting.

Conrad's wish turns the Doctor and Belinda into a trad couple with a baby neither of them asked for. This is bad, obviously. But the Doctor ends up completely rewriting Belinda's character so that's she's a mother and her whole character now is about being a mother. But this is presented as a good thing despite it basically being the same thing Conrad did. It's such a shame because Varda Sethu was great and Belinda was shaping up to be a strong companion earlier in the series.

Millie Gibson was very good in the scene with Conrad and the second half of the episode though and I did end up thinking Ruby came out of it as a better character than Belinda.

Jodie Whittaker was good in her cameo too so I guess the problems with her run really were down to Chibnall alone.

What was the point of Susan showing up in the two previous episodes then not being scene or even mentioned here? You'd think the Doctor would want to find out what that was all about! What was with the truly awful scene last week with Rogue in front of some CGI flames video calling the Doctor from Hell? He didn't help at all in the end and the Doctor didn't give him a second thought once he got his memory back.

I do not want to see BIllie Piper playing the Doctor but I'm pretty sure she was only there because they wanted a regeneration but hadn't cast a new Doctor yet. They can come up some rubbish to explain that she isn't really the Doctor then she hatches the new Doctor out of an egg or something.

 

[diankra]

I actually had to google her - she’s clearly well-known but somehow flew under my radar!

Well known in the UK, but maybe not elsewhere.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Doctor Who really is terrible with finales.

Here's my take on all the NuWho finales (excluding the 2013 and 2023 specials).

Series 1: a two-parter that would've worked just as well without the regeneration, but it helps elevate an already intense story to higher highs and is a good cap-off for the Ninth Doctor.
Series 2: frankly, not great, but it does have the novelty of a Dalek/Cybermen showdown, which remains a novelty. Also, Doctor/Rose departure still feels monumental and iconic to this day.
Series 3: when i first watched, I hated the last episode, but after watching all of Who, and listening to so much of it too, I've grown to appreciate it more. Overall fine, but with caveats.
Series 4: a spectacular blockbuster entry, whether you like it or not - and I love it (it especially works if you pair it with Turn Left).
2008/09 Specials: a mess, but the parts that worked REALLY worked, and even the parts that didn't don't drag the story for me - and the most iconic regeneration scene ever.
Series 5: a fantastic conclusion to a very ambitious story arc, perhaps the best (certainly one of three)
Series 6: underwhelming, but I like to believe by design
Series 7: Name of the Doctor, short as it is (and it does feel very short) is amazing and spectacular fanwank.No one can condense story arcs in such a short time as Moffat can.
Series 8: an okay one, though the first part is better
Series 9: same, but I like both a lot (and Heaven Sent is gold standard)
Series 10: potentially the best series finale of all of Who, and the best Cybermen story on TV.
Series 11: sorry, this was a series finale??
Series 12: someone rip my fucking heart out
Series 13: everything Name of the Doctor was, but less good (far, far less)

Now, with StreamingWho, we have:
Series 1: Well, at least the first part is intense, and the second is severely undercooked, but not outwardly terrible
Series 2: A wishy-washy tale about a returning villain who, unlike Sutekh in the previous series, is instead presented as a joke Mummy who eats the amazing Rani, just as she's returned, babies that shouldn't exist but actually do, the retconning of Belinda as a working mom (huh?), Ruby being a Time Psychic (??!??) who can sense when times change BUT NOT THE LITERAL TIME LORD STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HER, a completely pointless Doctor cameo (again, best scene in the entire episode, but the point of the Thirteenth Doctor in this? other than for RTD to completely redeem her horrible exit from her own regeneration story?), and a regeneration sequence that makes zero sense in any stretch of the imagination (so, what happened to the other characters from the reality he abandoned? are they still there? what the fucking hell is going on?) that totally falls flat on its face.

Overall, this series finale took the worst aspects of the previous finale (OldWho villain returns, maximum universe bending climaxes resolved in intimate ways) and overblown them to extremes. What is the point of bringing back Omega if he's going to be a parody of himself? I know some argue he was already a one-dimensional character, but at least make him a recognisable foe, not this abomination that could have literally any title slashed onto him and still serve the same function. And he gets to eat the Rani, a fantastic performance by two incredible actresses, making Rani's return entirely and completely pointless.

Bottom line: Unlike Moffat, RTD is seemingly unable to resolve and end an era in the same sense of resolution and finality. The Fifteenth Doctor, for me, just barely started to feel familiar and with this reduced episode count, the era is little more than just three episodes longer than Eccleston's - yet that era presented a more complete portrayal and characterization of the Doctor, whereas there were several Doctor-lite episodes that, at the time, seemed designed to give Ncuti Gatwa some time off to keep him both available for other projects and interested and involved enough with the program. But in the end, it was all for naught, with the only Doctor that we'll never see battle the Daleks or the Cybermen since McGann.

I won't even touch the Billie Piper as the Doctor thing, but suffice to say, she may well not be the Doctor - but if she ends up being the Doctor anyway, go fuck yourself RTD.

PS: Seeing Jodie in this TARDIS was so, so nice, and proves again that the comments on her shitty TARDIS were all correct. Wish this was a proper multi-Doctor special in the end, instead.

Another PS: The fuck was the point of Susan coming back?? I thought this was gonna be a big plot point????

A realization: RTD has now written for all modern Doctors with the exception of Peter Capaldi and John Hurt.

Technically, and this obviously doesn't count in any real sense, but still wrote a lot around that Doctor, right? Basically his entire backstory (the Time War, the battles the RTD1 Doctors mention him having fought in it, etc) and even key details that would end up as part of Day of the Doctor were shown by RTD himself, so I like to think he at least contributed to his lore.

But yeah, he didn't get to write for either of them, and its so odd to see Capaldi's Doctor singeled out. But, again and again, RTD single-handedly redeemed the Doctor's awful treatment to Yaz, despite her appearence not making a lick of sense (like, clearly, you cut this bit, the episode still "works" fine, no?).

And in the case of Capaldi, he has appeared in RTD productions, just as different characters. Okay, technically Jo Martin hasn't appeared in an episode written by RTD, but given he likely did script editing and a rewrite on The Story and the Engine, I'll count that.

Fair point, too.

But if you stick to Doctors who showed up in episodes definitely written by them, RTD is still the modern showrunner who has written for the least amount of Doctors. In order from most to least:

Moffat has written nine Doctors: One, Five, Eight, War, Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve, Fifteen.

What about the Curator? Do books count, as he wrote for Seven and Thirteen too, in that case.

Chibnall has written eight Doctors: Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fugitive.

How has Chibs written for Five, Six, Seven and Eight? Wouldn't One count, if the Doctors in the Doctorafterlife count? If not, surely the Five/Seven projections aren't really them, but projections of Thirteen?

RTD has written seven Doctors: Nine, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen.

Yes, I'm counting Piper as the Sixteenth Doctor.

Do audios count? Cause in that case, he wrote for Six and Seven (the latter adapted from a book he wrote in the 90's)

 

[JD]

I wonder if Kurtzman & Co. would be any more open to Dr. Who crossover than Berman and Co. were? I think I read somewhere that during his original time in charge of DW that RTD wanted to do an Enterprise crossover, but the Star Trek people weren't interesed, but now the shows are overlapping again and we do have a new regime in charge of Star Trek. A crossover with Dr. Who really wouldn't be any crazier than the Those Old Scientists or Subspace Rhapsody.

 

[Turtletrekker]

A realization: RTD has now written for all modern Doctors with the exception of Peter Capaldi and John Hurt. And in the case of Capaldi, he has appeared in RTD productions, just as different characters. Okay, technically Jo Martin hasn't appeared in an episode written by RTD, but given he likely did script editing and a rewrite on The Story and the Engine, I'll count that.

But if you stick to Doctors who showed up in episodes definitely written by them, RTD is still the modern showrunner who has written for the least amount of Doctors. In order from most to least:

Moffat has written nine Doctors: One, Five, Eight, War, Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve, Fifteen.
Chibnall has written eight Doctors: Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fugitive.
RTD has written seven Doctors: Nine, Ten, Eleven, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen.

Yes, I'm counting Piper as the Sixteenth Doctor.

According to one of the behind the scenes videos released by the BBC, the inclusion of the Fugitive Doctor in that episode was RTD's idea.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

For the first third of the episode I was enjoying it quite well. Like, yeah, it was a bit of a cheat to get out of the cliffhanger with a literal reset, but that's just RTD for you! At least things were happening and it was fun and it was nice to see Anita again and the Doctor walking in wearing a skirt was cool. The younger Rani was good in her big scene. But then she just dies lass than halfway through the episode, just when it seems like she's really gotten going as a villain. Then Omega's just a big monster guy who the Doctor defeats by...shooting him? With the vindicator? It can do that?

So we need more story for the next half hour and all of it is about remembering then saving Poppy. And, sorry if that makes me heartless, but I couldn't give a fuck about Poppy. You can't just introduce a baby out of nowhere and expect us to care by having everyone say "LOOK HOW AMAZING AND SPECIAL POPPY IS!" And having her be based on the Doctor's memory of a space baby (for some reason!) was just distracting.

Conrad's wish turns the Doctor and Belinda into a trad couple with a baby neither of them asked for. This is bad, obviously. But the Doctor ends up completely rewriting Belinda's character so that's she's a mother and her whole character now is about being a mother. But this is presented as a good thing despite it basically being the same thing Conrad did. It's such a shame because Varda Sethu was great and Belinda was shaping up to be a strong companion earlier in the series.

Millie Gibson was very good in the scene with Conrad and the second half of the episode though and I did end up thinking Ruby came out of it as a better character than Belinda.

Jodie Whittaker was good in her cameo too so I guess the problems with her run really were down to Chibnall alone.

What was the point of Susan showing up in the two previous episodes then not being scene or even mentioned here? You'd think the Doctor would want to find out what that was all about! What was with the truly awful scene last week with Rogue in front of some CGI flames video calling the Doctor from Hell? He didn't help at all in the end and the Doctor didn't give him a second thought once he got his memory back.

I do not want to see BIllie Piper playing the Doctor but I'm pretty sure she was only there because they wanted a regeneration but hadn't cast a new Doctor yet. They can come up some rubbish to explain that she isn't really the Doctor then she hatches the new Doctor out of an egg or something.

Actually more eloquent and succinctly sane expression of much of my points, but without the seething anger and disappointment imbued in my post above.

 

[Chaos Descending]

So see everybody in six months for Christmas I guess?

That would take a miracle. It would have to be green-lit, written, and produced in the next six month. Not very likely.

 

[FredH]

So we need more story for the next half hour and all of it is about remembering then saving Poppy. And, sorry if that makes me heartless, but I couldn't give a fuck about Poppy. You can't just introduce a baby out of nowhere and expect us to care by having everyone say "LOOK HOW AMAZING AND SPECIAL POPPY IS!" And having her be based on the Doctor's memory of a space baby (for some reason!) was just distracting.

Poppy isn’t amazing and special. She doesn’t need to be anything in particular to deserve saving. That’s the whole point!

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Billie "Hartnell Placeholder" Piper.

 

[Caretaker]

I will miss Ncuti Gatwa, but their career is on the rise. Of course, now that we know The Doctor can return to a face, maybe at some point we'll see the face return (a possibiltiy that was brought up).

Would never have guessed a Whitaker or Piper return.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Well. That was quite. Something.

Like most Davies finales, there are some things I loved, some things I hated, some things I was indifferent towards, some things I was disappointed in, and I imagine I run contrary to most on each of those.

What I was disappointed in shouldn't really be a fault held against the two-parter but rather against my own mismanaged expectations. I had hoped the nature of this reality war would deal directly with the Pantheon and draw directly with what had been going on with mavity and the other subtle changes in reality since Tennant specials. But at least that door was left open when Anita (!!!) referred to the Boss again, undoubtedly the same unseen Boss that Beep the Meep referred to. I was also disappointed (but not surprised) we didn't get any follow-up on Susan's cameos other than providing context and mystery to The Doctor and The Rani's comments about how Time Lords can't reproduce.

What I was indifferent towards was the depiction of Omega and essentially discarding him just as quickly as he arrived as the nonthreat that he was always destined be in this story. I was first baffled but then greatly amused by his weird giant skeleton monster appearance, a deliberate discretion of the character. Good thing I don't care about the character but I imagine some people absolutely hated this depiction and treatment. The only thing that bothered me slightly was how The Doctor (and maybe others but perhaps just him) went back and forth between the British and the American pronunciations of Omega.

What I hated (well, that's a strong word, more like strongly disliked) was the Davies-patented absurdities of breaking down The Rani's wish world veil around UNIT personnel and then quickly foiling The Rani's ridiculous schemes. I guess it's fitting that one of her hare-brained schemes backfired on her and bit in her in the ass (yet again) but I was hoping she was going to be a more genuine threat. Her talk about restoring the Time Lord race with amoral eugenics was a delightful highlight as the episode briefly leaned into The Rani's best characteristic. Just a shame that moment quickly disappeared along with Omega.

What I loved, after all of the absurd Rani antics and tearing away the wish world and how none of that felt like an actual reality war, was when the very fabric of reality did shift in a way like mavity casually slipped into reality. The quiet and continuous shifting of Poppy's existence was terrifying and I particularly loved the simple effect of The Doctor and Belinda folding up her jumper into nothingness as a mechanism of her disappearance. While I will have to ruminate on whether I believe the plausibility of The Doctor being so pulled into Poppy as his actual daughter, I greatly appreciate his grand sacrifice of his current incarnation to bring her back into reality, if with an unintended adjustment. While I like the idea of how this "true" reality has always been the "right" one, I do have some trouble buying into the idea of Belinda being both in a hurry to get to her daughter and also being okay with having a few adventures along the way because time travel will allow her to get back in time.

Speaking of The Fifteenth Doctor's sacrifice...The Thirteenth Doctor's triumphant return!! I imagine her cameo was one of the many things stashed away in those spoilers boxes in the Davies thread, but I'm glad her appearance was spoiled for me. It was such a delight to see her again and made yearn for her adventures. I think a rewatch is in order...

I do wish I hadn't been spoiled on Billie Piper's reveal and that's my fault. However, I have to say it was also partially the fault of how certain people in this forum has unfortunately tilted towards digging up all of the spoilers and throwing them around all over the place, regardless of whether they're behind a spoiler box or not. The problem is the conversation around the spoiler boxes provide hints and connotations of what's being discussed and then soon enough, one can extrapolate what's being discussed whatever is behind the spoiler box without even looking in it. Feh. Water under bridge and all that but it's still annoying.

As for Billie as The Sixteenth Doctor, my only real issue with it is how she is undoubtedly another placeholder Doctor, now part of continuing trend of using familiar faces to play The Doctor briefly. I don't think I ever really disliked Piper as an actress but rather had issues with Rose and how the character changed so much after The Ninth Doctor regenerated. Hell, you can see the quality of her acting ability when she returned as The Moment and how the right writing with the right directing can bring out completely different performances, and I imagine the same will be true with her however long tenure as The Sixteenth Doctor.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The closest I got to being "right" was the bone palace being a TARDIS. Even there I was wrong about whose TARDIS and it wasn't the entire palace.