The rank of 'Lieutenant Commander' within the service
- Thread starter Lance
- Start date
Or maybe not. The actual operations department on DS9 may only have consisted of enlisted personnel, with O'Brien being the highest-ranking person there. The operations chief billet on that rundown space station may only have originally warranted a noncom.
I assumed Kira was a Lt. Colonel. It is admissible to address a Lt. Colonel as just "Colonel" and it is the next rank after Major. But also, later on in season 7 when she received a Starfleet commission, her rank was Commander, which is the naval equivalent to a Lt. Colonel.
Yahoo answers says, Colonel when spoken to and Lt Colonel when written.
^^Presumably the same practice applies to Lt. Commander, and yet even though that was Chakotay's rank he is always addressed to as Commander, and Commander was written out in the credits as well. For the first three seasons, anyway. Voyager dropped everyone's ranks in the credits except for Janeway from season 4 onwards.
So the same could be the case with Kira, she's really a Lt. Colonel despite credits listing her as Colonel. In fact, given her Starfleet rank was Commander, this would support her being a Lt. Colonel since it would be something of a kick in the teeth is Starfleet demoted her from her Bajoran rank.
So the same could be the case with Kira, she's really a Lt. Colonel despite credits listing her as Colonel. In fact, given her Starfleet rank was Commander, this would support her being a Lt. Colonel since it would be something of a kick in the teeth is Starfleet demoted her from her Bajoran rank.
^ It is the practice to say "Commander" to Lt Commanders as in your example about Colonels.
----
One thing I often notice in these discussions about "ranks" is a lack of appreciation/understanding of the chain of command in determining not only who answers to whom, but also in why a Lt. Commander might be the CO of a smaller ship. It's not because of the size of the ship, per se, it's because of the size of the crew.
----
One thing I often notice in these discussions about "ranks" is a lack of appreciation/understanding of the chain of command in determining not only who answers to whom, but also in why a Lt. Commander might be the CO of a smaller ship. It's not because of the size of the ship, per se, it's because of the size of the crew.
Picard's line in Best of Both Worlds seems to support that, when he is talking with Riker about LtCdr Shelby.
Picard: "Sounds like a young lieutenant commander I recruited as a first officer."
We might even argue that the guest star character Gideon Seyetlik was the commanding officer of the vessel, and held the rank of Captain or even flag rank. He just chose not to wear his uniform, adding to his already long list of idiosyncrasies. So, with Seyetlik off to commit suicide, his XO no doubt lying stunned in the shuttlebay after a heroic fight to stop her captain from departing, and his Second Officer and CMO clearly no longer in speaking terms with the irritating lunatic, it befell on that hapless Lt (jg) serving as Officer of the Watch to tell Sisko that there was nothing he or anybody else could do to stop the skipper from ending his career in stellar glory.
To add to the list of LtCmdr XOs, Keogh in "Jem'Hadar" had one as well... And Sulu's bridge in ST6 didn't seem to have anybody at Commander rank present, while there were a couple of LtCmdrs.
Timo Saloniemi
What's more, "Identity Crisis" establishes that he was an Ensign the year before TNG Season One!
That would make sense, but I believe MacLeod's assertion is backed up in the show itself: IIRC, O'Brien appeared to have both Ensigns and Lieutenants working for him.
Rank and/or pay grade doesn't necessarily equal position. In the real world, a lesser rank may very well be in a position of authority over someone of higher rank. It's all about the job.
Riker being a full CDR says more about his service record than his position as XO. Picard hand picked his senior staff, so it's entirely possible that Riker -- at that point a "climber" in his career -- gained a promotion when he accepted the assignment.
In the TOS movies, having three captains aboard the Enterprise was not at all about rank. It was about authority. Spock and Scotty had earned their rank by their record and length of service, but their assignment made them subordinate to their commanding officer, Captain James Tiberius Freaking Kirk (The Best Damn Captain in All of Starfleet, IMO).
Not that anyone in his right mind wouldn't defer to Kirk anyway.
I remember seeing at least once a full Commander (double stripes) in TOS in a redshirt, presumably in Security.
Since mostly Lt Cmdr Scott is 3rd in command would he outrank this full Commander? In what matters? Maybe not in security but maybe firing on Klingons or dealing with Federation ambassadors.
In Menagerie McCoy took over command but someone else took operational command.
Could a Lt Cmdr order a Cmdr about in today's navy, does anyone know?
Legally, in the US Navy, a ship's captain is the ultimate authority on his/her ship, and a command pilot is the ultimate authority on his/her plane. So if a Lt. Cmdr is, for example, captain of USS Bolster*, a rescue and salvage ship, and even an *admiral* came aboard, then unless that admiral was directly above that captain in the command structure of the fleet the ship is in, then yes, the captain could give orders to that admiral**. And even if the admiral *were* in that command chain, it is protocol that the admiral would give an order to the captain, and then the captain would deliver and implement that order on the ship - and in matters not related to fleet command, the captain still has authority over the admiral.
*Command of USS Bolster usually *is* a captain that is a Lt. Cmdr - and in fact, Lt. Cmdr Darlene Iskra who captained it was the first woman to command a U.S. Navy ship, back in 1990.
**Of course, people being how they are, in reality a captain would do best to tread lightly here, because even if a senior officer to them isn't in their chain of command, it is possible that they have friends and/or allies in the service that can make the captain's life a living hell if they decide to really take offense to being ordered about.
I think a case could be made that as operations chief, he had provisional authority over his department--granted perhaps by Sisko--and that it was limited only to that. In such a case, any junior officers (I doubt there would be many) would be working more with O'Brien than for him perhaps.
Let's also remember how thinly crewed the station was - in "Captive Pursuit", it sounded as if there were only 300 people aboard, including civilians.
It may well be that the Cardassian/Bajoran station featured virtually no Starfleet engineering crew, save for a few enlisteds keeping the runabouts running about. Hence, O'Brien was given authority over Bajoran experts (some of whom held commissions) and often drafted people from other yellowshirt departments of the Starfleet contingent such as Security (many if not all of whom held commissions, because for some reason, possibly legalistic, most guards do seem to hold rank).
In this model, there was no formal need to mustang O'Brien into an Ensign or a Lieutenant, because all his "real" underlings in Engineering or Operations were enlisteds. But he didn't really work with that sort of staff in practice.
Timo Saloniemi
It may well be that the Cardassian/Bajoran station featured virtually no Starfleet engineering crew, save for a few enlisteds keeping the runabouts running about. Hence, O'Brien was given authority over Bajoran experts (some of whom held commissions) and often drafted people from other yellowshirt departments of the Starfleet contingent such as Security (many if not all of whom held commissions, because for some reason, possibly legalistic, most guards do seem to hold rank).
In this model, there was no formal need to mustang O'Brien into an Ensign or a Lieutenant, because all his "real" underlings in Engineering or Operations were enlisteds. But he didn't really work with that sort of staff in practice.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually that's not correct for the US Navy. Under USN regulations, a flag officer who is eligible to command at sea does have authority over the commanding officer of a ship, even if the flag officer is only aboard as a passenger. See US Navy Regulations, Chapter 10, Article 1031.
Otherwise, yes, aboard his/her vessel the commanding officer is not subject to the orders of a senior officer below flag rank. Also, the executive officer has authority over all officers (other than the CO of course) assigned to the vessel, regardless of rank. One of the more extreme examples of this was on nuclear carriers back in the '80s-early '90s, when it was not uncommon for the Reactor Officer (nuke chief engineer) to be a fairly senior captain who had previously commanded a nuclear surface ship (back when there was such a thing), while the XO was a commander or newly-promoted junior captain.
Or then he commanded a formation of ships, none of which were exactly flying shotgun to the Constellation but were rather deployed to study the vast frontier and left in the dark when the command ship entered the no-communications zone next to the DDM.
Certainly Kirk and pals identified the Constellation as Matt Decker's ship, supposedly giving some permanence to him being aboard.
Timo Saloniemi
Certainly Kirk and pals identified the Constellation as Matt Decker's ship, supposedly giving some permanence to him being aboard.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm guessing you're thinking of Giotto from The Devil in the Dark? Much like Finney and Season 1 Spock, he wore two full stripes but was identified in dialogue as a lieutenant commander. Not really sure why this seemed to happen so much in early TOS.
There was also an unnamed background character in the third(?) season who wore a red shirt and the full two stripes (someone may have already mentioned this upthread?). I'm *guessing* that was just a case of a background extra reusing Barry Russo's costume.
We could well draw the conclusion that the ship held a fairly sizable contingent of soldiers, warranting a Lieutenant Colonel or at least a Major in command - basically, a battalion commander. There's a historical downtrend in the size of military formations, so a future battalion might be but a few hundred people strong, rounding out Kirk's 430 if his "operating crew" is like Pike's, only about 200 in strength. Or then there's a company or less of redshirts aboard but high rank is the bribe needed for keeping an officer in the risky job. After all, attrition is so high that bureaucracy (and Kirk!) has trouble keeping up with the rank the Marine Commander currently holds... 
ENT shows us a different viewpoint: a Major is sent to command a supposed platoon (a few dozen men and women at most) of elite forces, possibly because of the extreme importance of the mission and the lack of backup etc. Possibly starships loitering to the far wilderness get assigned elite Security veterans, as compared to ships operating closer to home.
Going back to Hornblower times, we could also argue that most of Kirk's crew is "naval infantry", people falling under the command of Giotto and his ilk whenever needed for surface combat duty (that is, virtually never). Were the head of Security a mere Lieutenant, there might be problems of authority in such situations, at a time where you definitely wouldn't want any.
In any case, the high-ranking Security redshirts never seem to feature in the chain of command - unlike the Security/Tactical double-timers from the TNG era.
Timo Saloniemi
ENT shows us a different viewpoint: a Major is sent to command a supposed platoon (a few dozen men and women at most) of elite forces, possibly because of the extreme importance of the mission and the lack of backup etc. Possibly starships loitering to the far wilderness get assigned elite Security veterans, as compared to ships operating closer to home.
Going back to Hornblower times, we could also argue that most of Kirk's crew is "naval infantry", people falling under the command of Giotto and his ilk whenever needed for surface combat duty (that is, virtually never). Were the head of Security a mere Lieutenant, there might be problems of authority in such situations, at a time where you definitely wouldn't want any.
In any case, the high-ranking Security redshirts never seem to feature in the chain of command - unlike the Security/Tactical double-timers from the TNG era.
Timo Saloniemi
Or Giotto's full battalion might be spread between a half dozen starship's, with only thirty of so present aboard the Enterprise. Each ship's "troops" wpuld be under direct command of a Lt., but on any occasion of combined operations Giotto would be in command. Giotto would also be in overall administrative control of security personnel on the multiple ships.
I've often wondered if someone thought that "commander" was just short for "lieutenant commander," not a separate rank. It's hard to imagine, since a simple check in a reference book would set it straight, but it would explain some things.
Interesting idea. That would be very similar to the early days of the US Fleet Marine Force, when it was more of an ad hoc organization of ships' marine detachments that could be assembled together as a larger landing force. The difference was, the fleet marine officer (lt. col. or major) would be on the flagship as part of the admiral's staff.
Similar threads
