The rank of 'Lieutenant Commander' within the service

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Where was that? I mean, I know Sisko was still only a commander when Defiant was assigned to Deep Space Nine, and was her effective captain despite his rank, but I'm struggling to think of any other Trek ships whose commanding officer was not also a captain. Or admiral.

The only other example I can think of is also from DS9. Cal Hudson was a lieutenant commander and held an administrative position as the Starfleet attache to the Federation colonies in the DMZ. I don't know how many Starfleet personnel he had under his command--most of his interactions with people other than Sisko's crew were with civilians--but his position was clearly one of authority.

--Sran

 

[MacLeod]

I agree that, although Riker's promotion to full Commander may have been accelerated, he was a fast-track officer, due to his exceptional abilities and courage. I think a full Commander--Will Riker or anyone else--should be required for such a flagship as the Enterprise.

If the operation of a Galaxy-class ship is comparable to the most elite vessels of contemporary navies--aircraft carriers--it might even be necessary for the executive officer to be of captain rank. Yes, the ship could have two people of captains rank, although only one of them would be the commanding officer.

Probably an exception but the Enterprise-A had 3 Captyain's onboard Kirk, Spock and Scott.

 

[Nebusj]

FWIW in the Spanish-American War era the US Navy had first- and second-rate vessels (battleships, armored cruisers, protected cruisers) commanded by captains with lieutenant commanders as executive officers. There weren't enough commanders to assign them as executive officers under a captain; they generally commanded third-rate vessels (small cruisers, monitors and patrol gunboats) or held various shore assignments.

Mind, the US Navy had a borderline pathological resistance to higher ranks in the 19th century. I think the greatest example of this was the South Seas Exploring Expedition, a four-year, six-vessel voyage of discovery, commanded by one Charles Wilkes, a Lieutenant. (He styled himself as Commodore --- then a largely symbolic title --- the moment the ships left home port.)

Of course, the US Navy in the 19th century also had very little business and so could get away with not even having the defined ranks of a flag officer for half of the century.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Probably an exception but the Enterprise-A had 3 Captyain's onboard Kirk, Spock and Scott.

Yeah, I think that only happened because of the out-of-universe reason: they are regular characters, so they have to be there. There's no "real" reason any naval vessel (fictional or otherwise) would have that many Captains, I would think.

 

[J.T.B.]

Mind, the US Navy had a borderline pathological resistance to higher ranks in the 19th century. I think the greatest example of this was the South Seas Exploring Expedition, a four-year, six-vessel voyage of discovery, commanded by one Charles Wilkes, a Lieutenant. (He styled himself as Commodore --- then a largely symbolic title --- the moment the ships left home port.)

True, though I would say the resistance was more on the part of Congress than the Navy: Most naval officers longed for the promotions that new higher ranks would open up.

Wilkes was only a lieutenant, but in those days, with reliance on seniority for promotion and no retirement system, that did not necessarily mean a "junior" officer. Wilkes had been in the navy 20 years when he led that expedition. His promotion to commander after 25 years of service and captain after 37 was fairly meteoric. When the Civil War began, future admiral David D. Porter was a lieutenant with 20 years seniority and 32 years in the Navy.

As for Wilkes being a commodore: It wasn't a rank but it wasn't just symbolic, either. It indicated an officer who was entitled to fly a broad pennant, indicating command over multiple vessels. Which, I believe, Wilkes's orders from the Navy Department authorized him to do.

ETA:

There's no "real" reason any naval vessel (fictional or otherwise) would have that many Captains, I would think.

US nuclear aircraft carriers always have multiple O-6 captains aboard. Back in the big Cold War navy there were sometimes five or six captains assigned to a supercarrier.

 

[BK613]

hmm
-Spock was a LtCmdr and then a Cmdr as a First Officer
-Decker took a temp grade reduction to Cmdr to be First Officer. (Was Sonak to be Decker's XO as well as the science officer? He was a Cmdr as well.)
-Chekov was a Cmdr as First Officer of the Reliant.
-Riker was Cmdr as First Officer

Maybe not as rare as the OP thought?

 

[T'Girl]

I guess it depends on what you consider recent

Always best to take the long view.

 

[varek]

I love your vast knowledge of naval history, J.T.B. Thank you so much for sharing with us!

 

[J.T.B.]

^ Well I don't know about "vast," but I do know it's almost useless in my day-to-day life, so if it's useful to someone here I'm glad!

Justin

 

[WisTrekFan]

On Kirk's Enterprise, in addition to Spock, Scotty and McCoy there was also Records Officer Lieutenant Commander Finney and Security Chief Lieutenant Commander Giotto, although Giotta actually wore commander's stripes. Neither of these officers seem to be in the chain of command. There was a briefing room scene in one episode where there was a command officer standing in the background with commander's stripes, but we didn't see his face. In any event, after Scotty the next person in the chain of command was Lieutanant Sulu, so there apparently wasn't an overabundance of lieutenant commanders on Kirk's ship.

 

[inflatabledalek]

we've seen officers with a rank lower than Captain command a ship

Where was that?.

The most obvious (possibly only?) example that springs to mind is the Second Sight episode of DS9 where the Federation ship the last half is set on is commanded by someone of lower rank than Sisko for the plot based reason that it allowed him to stay in charge of events rather than have a captain making the important decisions over him.

It always amused me that the original cast film's established an in-Universe precedent for having more than one captain serving on the same ship (regardless of real world logic), but TNG never reused this idea as a sensible (if not perfect) way of dealing with the issues over Riker's stagnating character in relation to him reaching the point of being ready for captaincy at the start of season 4 but never getting the final promotion.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The way they handle rank versus division is interesting if not confusing.

It seemed like a red shirt Lt Cmdr functioned a lot like a first officer.

When Riker was captain, he promoted Shelby from Lt Cmnder to Commander, yet Jericho let Data serve as first officer but he stayed a Lt Cmdr.

And yet he had Data put on the red uniform.

Riker considered Worf, which would have meant promoting Worf directly from Lt to Commander.

In that case, Worf would have almost been on the same level as Picard.

Technically (I believe) a Commander and Captain belong to the same rank, just different grades.

The captain is has a lot more power and privileges though.

 

[urbandefault]

Rank and/or pay grade doesn't necessarily equal position. In the real world, a lesser rank may very well be in a position of authority over someone of higher rank. It's all about the job.

Riker being a full CDR says more about his service record than his position as XO. Picard hand picked his senior staff, so it's entirely possible that Riker -- at that point a "climber" in his career -- gained a promotion when he accepted the assignment.

In the TOS movies, having three captains aboard the Enterprise was not at all about rank. It was about authority. Spock and Scotty had earned their rank by their record and length of service, but their assignment made them subordinate to their commanding officer, Captain James Tiberius Freaking Kirk (The Best Damn Captain in All of Starfleet, IMO).

Not that anyone in his right mind wouldn't defer to Kirk anyway.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the US Navy a Captain's rate/grade is an O-6 and his rank is Captain. A Commander is an O-5.

 

[C.E. Evans]

we've seen officers with a rank lower than Captain command a ship

Where was that?.

The most obvious (possibly only?) example that springs to mind is the Second Sight episode of DS9 where the Federation ship the last half is set on is commanded by someone of lower rank than Sisko for the plot based reason that it allowed him to stay in charge of events rather than have a captain making the important decisions over him.

That might have been a case of someone filling in for the captain while he or she was away on leave (even Picard went on vacation sometimes).

 

[popcultureevil]

It just occurred to me how unusual it is for a Starfleet first officer to be of full commander rank.

Spock was referred to in dialogue as a Lieutenant Commander for the first half of TOS season one, before (apparently) getting a full promotion halfway through the season. Although he always sported two full rank braids (so maybe the promotion was issued in the field -- by Kirk? -- but it took half a year for the 'official' paperwork back at Starfleet Command to finally catch up with it).

Voyager's original first officer when she sets out on the Maquis mission, Cavit, was also a Lieutenant Commander as shown on-screen. And even Chakotay himself wears the rank of a Provisional Lt. Cmdr all the way through the series, two stripes and a half stripe. He's refered to as 'Commander', even credited as such, but doesn't ever have that rank as shown on screen.

And yet, Will Riker arrives on the Enterprise already a full commander. Which might tie in with his backstory as a fast tracker within the service, somebody whose rise up the ranks has apparently been very swift. He was promoted to Lt. Cmdr following exceptional valor at Nervala IV, and his assignment as first officer of the USS Hood was apparently not long after this, inferring that he was a Lt.Cmdr when he was first officer of the Hood (perhaps he was bumped up to full commander for the Enterprise assignment because it's the flagship?). Notably, unlike the others listed here, the first time we saw him on screen wasn't actually the character's first time as second-in-command of a starship.

The prevalence of Lt.Cmdrs in the position of first officer lends me to ask: is this standard practice in Starfleet? For most first officers to be Lt.Cmdrs, before "graduating" to full rank at some point?

What do you mean full rank?

It is a full rank.

 

[Lance]

Merely a poor choice of words on my part; I do, in fact, actually agree with you (hence the point of this thread, being that on most Starfleet ships depicted in Star Trek the Executive Officer the majority of the time is of the rank Lieutenant Commander, rather than Commander).

I've just been reminded also that Ben Sisko was Lieutenant Commander when he was first officer of the USS Saratoga at the start of the DS9 pilot.

It definitely seems to me that Riker is rare in being a 'Commander' upon commencement of that XO position aboard Enterprise (even Spock, if dialogue is to be taken at face value, was apparently only a Lieutenant Commander during the first half season of TOS). Although Riker was apparently a Lt Cmdr during his first ever assignment as a first officer, aboard the USS Hood immediately prior to his Enterprise reassignment, which is consistent with the above apparent usage of rank in Starfleet.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Rank and/or pay grade doesn't necessarily equal position. In the real world, a lesser rank may very well be in a position of authority over someone of higher rank. It's all about the job.

Riker being a full CDR says more about his service record than his position as XO. Picard hand picked his senior staff, so it's entirely possible that Riker -- at that point a "climber" in his career -- gained a promotion when he accepted the assignment.

I noticed once Sisko got promoted to captain, Bashir and Dax got promoted as well-and Bashir was right out of the academy.

In the US Navy a Captain's rate/grade is an O-6 and his rank is Captain. A Commander is an O-5.

The military equivalent to a captain is colonel and for commander it's Lt. Colonel.

What I took from that was that they basically belonged to the same rank, but different grades with the colonel being the senior grade, and the Lt. colonel being the junior grade.

I remember an article where Johnthan Frakes said his job was to be a 'tactical captain' and lead the away teams, while Picard managed things from the bridge.

Of course I could be waaaayyy off on that idea...

I think the Bajoran military and Starfleet had similar differences.

When Sisko took leave, Kira was promoted to colonel and took his place. They didn't say which type of colonel, so if its a full colonel she was the same rank as captain Sisko.

BTW, maybe someone mentioned it already, on the Odyssey, which was a Galaxy class, the first officer was a Lt commander.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Rank and/or pay grade doesn't necessarily equal position. In the real world, a lesser rank may very well be in a position of authority over someone of higher rank. It's all about the job.

Riker being a full CDR says more about his service record than his position as XO. Picard hand picked his senior staff, so it's entirely possible that Riker -- at that point a "climber" in his career -- gained a promotion when he accepted the assignment.

I noticed once Sisko got promoted to captain, Bashir and Dax got promoted as well-and Bashir was right out of the academy.

In the US Navy a Captain's rate/grade is an O-6 and his rank is Captain. A Commander is an O-5.

The military equivalent to a captain is colonel and for commander it's Lt. Colonel.

You might be looking at it to literally. The names aren't that relevant. A Captain is superior to a Commander. A higher rank. Ranks are replete with duplication of terms. In the Army you have First Lieutenants and Second Lieutenants, Colonels and Lt. Colonels and a whole slew of Generals. In the Navy you have Lieutenants and Lieutenants junior grade, Commanders and Lt. Commanders and a whole slew of Admirals. There is a hierarchy, with Lt. Commanders, Lt. Colonels and Second Lieutenants and Lieutenants junior grade being junior to Commanders, Colonels and Lieutenants. The terminology between Army and Navy doesn't match up. A "junior" Lieutenant in the Navy is the equal to a First Lieutenant in the Army. While a "senior" Naval Lieutenant is equal to an army Captain. If they wanted to go Army the Naval ranks might be

O-1- Second Ensign
O-2- First Ensign
O-2- Lieutenant
O-4- Commander
O-4- Lt. Captain
O-5 -Captain

As urbandefault pointed out position can also trump rank. A ships CO, be it a Captain, Commander or Lt. Commander isn't going to take orders from a non line officer of higher rank. Admiral McCoy can't give orders Captain Picard based on rank.

 

[J.T.B.]

Rank and/or pay grade doesn't necessarily equal position. In the real world, a lesser rank may very well be in a position of authority over someone of higher rank. It's all about the job.

That's true, but it's rare that a junior grade has a "job" that places him/her in charge of a senior, because in most military situations juniors are legally required to obey the orders of a superior. There are definitely some necessary exceptions, and they are written in to the rules, but for the most part things are organized so there are levels of jobs that line up with levels of rank.

The military equivalent to a captain is colonel and for commander it's Lt. Colonel.

What I took from that was that they basically belonged to the same rank, but different grades with the colonel being the senior grade, and the Lt. colonel being the junior grade.

There are a couple of concepts here. One meaning of "rank" is who has authority over whom. There are no ties, everyone is either junior or senior to anyone else. An officer who has been a lieutenant for five years can "pull rank" over one who has been a lieutenant for only four years, even though they both have the same title.

Another meaning of "rank" is also called "grade," which is how different levels of authority are officially divided and titled. This is generally up to the top level national authorities. The law in the United States officially uses the term "grade," and legally captain and commander are separate grades. 10 USC § 5501:

"The commissioned grades in the Navy above the grade of chief warrant officer, W–5, are the following:

1. Admiral.
2. Vice admiral.
3. Rear admiral.
4. Rear admiral (lower half).
5. Captain.
6. Commander.
7. Lieutenant commander.
8. Lieutenant.
9. Lieutenant (junior grade).
10. Ensign."