The rank of "Commodore"

[C.E. Evans]

Why?

Because of the three primary characters in TOS--Kirk, Spock, and McCoy--we learned what they were up to during that time. Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations, Spock left Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr, and McCoy quit Starfleet too to audition for the Village People. Don't know about you, but that was enough for me.

Now, we could say all sorts of other stuff happened between TOS and TMP--maybe there was a second five-year mission, maybe Kirk was the planetary governor of Deneva for a time, Spock and Uhura were briefly married then divorced, and McCoy became the Karaoke Champion of the Federation. Can't preclude those possibilities too by that logic.

 

[J.T.B.]

By the time of the TOS movies, I think the rank of Commodore in real life had been replaced by Rear Admiral Lower half. But no one wants to be called a "Lower Rear Admiral" so they just call them Rear Admiral.

The US Navy eliminated commodore as a grade in 1899, so even during TOS's run it was not a US Navy rank. It made brief reappearances as a temporary rank in WW2 and again in the early '80s.

The USN got rid of the grade of commodore in 1899 because of a status disparity between their commodores and those of the much larger and more influential British Royal Navy, which did not considered commodore to be a flag rank. Understandable enough. What is harder to posit is a reason for Starfleet scrapping a grade that had been established for at least 100 years.

[...](fleet captain as proposed in World War II was meant for such captains, e.g. aboard aircraft carriers - though it was a substantive grade).

I know Wikipedia claims that, without a citation, but it is baloney. World War II records show quite clearly that there were not multiple captains regularly assigned to aircraft carriers during the war (aside from a possible one or two on a flag officer's staff, which would not be part of the ship's company), the XO and CAG routinely held the rank of commander. Having "extra" O-6 captains assigned is something from the super-carrier era.

Congressional resistance to creating a navy rank without an army equivalent would be substantial, and I have not been able to find any evidence for the Wikipedia claim that a substantive "fleet captain" rank was ever seriously proposed.

--Justin

 

[Timo]

Because of the three primary characters in TOS--Kirk, Spock, and McCoy--we learned what they were up to during that time. Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations, Spock left Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr, and McCoy quit Starfleet too to audition for the Village People.

No, we didn't.

We learned that Spock underwent Kolinahr training, and was listed as "inactive" in Starfleet records. That he left Starfleet is our conjecture, based on the spelled-out facts - and is a whole backstory unto itself, as we now have to imagine what could possibly make Spock part ways with his friends and colleagues.

Quite similarly, we learn that Kirk is now CSFOps - from which we can and will derive some sort of a backstory, namely that he got promoted to that position somehow. Why, when, through which intermediate steps, we don't know - but just as with Spock's sudden career change, something must have happened, and it would be absurd to think that anything not mentioned on screen would have to omitted from consideration.

That Kirk is CSFOps is not proof that he did not command further starships or installations - hence my truly astonished "Why?". It's very close to being proof to the contrary.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

I actually like the idea of a larger gap of time between the end of the five year mission and the beginning of The Motion Picture. It opens up a literal ton of storytelling potential for both the characters and the Enterprise.

Kirk heading up the construction and testing of the three-nacelled Dreadnought project.
Spock doing some time at a scientific installation.
McCoy doing some frontier medicine work.
Scott working with a design team for what will become the redesigned Enterprise.
The Enterprise being manned by a different crew.

The rest doing various assignments.

But what do I know?

 

[Brolan]

The naval rank commodore came about when they needed to designate a senior captain to command a small group of ships. It made clear who the senior captain was, and that the other captains should follow his orders. Often it was temporary so the commodore was either promoted to admiral or went back to being a captain.

 

[J.T.B.]

The naval rank commodore came about when they needed to designate a senior captain to command a small group of ships. It made clear who the senior captain was, and that the other captains should follow his orders. Often it was temporary so the commodore was either promoted to admiral or went back to being a captain.

Actually it came about so the Admiralty could get around the strict seniority system for promotion to rear admiral. The commodore grade, with similar duties but without a permanent claim to flag rank, allowed them to use a capable officer in that capacity without waiting for his number to come up to the top of the seniority list. (N. A. M. Rodger, The Wooden World, An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy, William Collins, 1986).

--Justin

 

[C.E. Evans]

Because of the three primary characters in TOS--Kirk, Spock, and McCoy--we learned what they were up to during that time. Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations, Spock left Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr, and McCoy quit Starfleet too to audition for the Village People.

No, we didn't.

Yes, we did.

We learned that Spock underwent Kolinahr training, and was listed as "inactive" in Starfleet records.

File that under "Spock leaving Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr."

Quite similarly, we learn that Kirk is now CSFOps...

File that under "Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations."

Anything else is just non-canon conjecture we're adding into the mix to fill what we feel are blanks in the story or to make it more to our personal liking. Nothing wrong with that, but that's all that it is.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly content with what was given to us onscreen.

 

[Python Trek]

We know McCoy lost his razor.....

 

[Timo]

File that under "Spock leaving Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr."

But that's pure conjecture.

You may argue it's Occam's razor conjecture, or aesthetically pleasing conjecture, or whatever. But the movie doesn't say that Spock left Starfleet. We're imposing our own values on the movie if we choose to believe that version, instead of, say, Spock being kicked out of Starfleet for his crimes, or Vulcan seceding from the Federation and taking Spock along for the ride, or something even more complicated.

There's necessarily backstory to Spock doing Kolinahr and being listed "inactive". There's necessarily backstory to Kirk being CSFOps. There's no logic in deciding that believing in some backstory for Spock (or accepting the existence of backstory for Spock) is different from believing in some backstory for Kirk (or accepting the existence of backstory for Kirk).

Really, it's a lesser degree of conjecture to say that Kirk continued to be a Starfleet officer (meaning he continued to command ships, stations or desks) than to say that Spock marched out of Starfleet. The former is a given in the milieu we know; the latter is a severe anomaly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Orcus]

Either way, I like the idea of a second five-year mission. No cause or reason; I just like it, that's all.

In fact, waasn't there a theory out there (or reference in a book or whatever form) that the same crew embarked upon a second five-year mission?

 

[Timo]

The same crew, possibly; but not the same captain, at least not before ST:TMP. Kirk in the movie says pretty clearly that he has only spent five years "out there dealing with unknowns like this", not ten years.

He's probably spent a lot more time in space, both before and after TOS/TAS, but not all of it need count as "out there" (because Starfleet no doubt also operates in nearby, "tamed" space), and not all of it need count as "dealing with V'Ger -like unknowns". However, if Kirk did do a second five-year mission of exploration before the movie, it probably should count as both "out there" and "learning to know V'Ger's kin"...

There's nothing to stop Kirk from continuing his adventures as the ship's CO after TMP but before ST2 if need be. There's nothing to stop him from immediately returning to a desk job, either, and handing over the baton either directly to Spock or then to some intermediate skipper. In ST2, there's talk about "returning" the old, experienced crew to the ship, possibly after a long interval; perhaps some other crew operated the ship in the intervening years?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

File that under "Spock leaving Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr."

But that's pure conjecture.

Let's see...he was on Vulcan, undergoing the Kolinahr, and his Starfleet commission had to be reactivated upon his return to the Enterprise.

Nope. Nothing remotely conjectural about that, I'm afraid.

 

[mtblillie]

As I understand it traditionally a Commodore was the rank of someone who commanded more than one military vessel at a time (back when ranks like Colonel and Major were specific to position rather than rank), but it seems to have been hard to fit into the modern ranking system.

A Fleet Admiral or Captain in the last century or more has been for times of war when a staff is needed to support the "Sepreme Commander," which also is traditionally only used in times of war. I'll have to do some more research but I think that is what I understood.

 

[mtblillie]

File that under "Spock leaving Starfleet to undergo the Kolinahr."

But that's pure conjecture.

Let's see...he was on Vulcan, undergoing the Kolinahr, and his Starfleet commission had to be reactivated upon his return to the Enterprise.

Nope. Nothing remotely conjectural about that, I'm afraid.

Well, it is conjecture to say that he did anything else, and to say that is all he did. We simply do not know. He could have spent years doing Kolinahr for all we know, or he could have been doing other things.

We simply do not know, all we know is that at some point he became inactive in Starfleet and at some point he went to vulcan to undergo Kolinahr.

Arguing about it one way or the other isn't going to prove a point or solve anything.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The use of the term "inactive" presupposes that Spock was no longer in Starfleet. You're either in or you're out. Can't be both.

 

[Chaos Descending]

The naval rank commodore came about when they needed to designate a senior captain to command a small group of ships. It made clear who the senior captain was, and that the other captains should follow his orders. Often it was temporary so the commodore was either promoted to admiral or went back to being a captain.

Actually it came about so the Admiralty could get around the strict seniority system for promotion to rear admiral. The commodore grade, with similar duties but without a permanent claim to flag rank, allowed them to use a capable officer in that capacity without waiting for his number to come up to the top of the seniority list. (N. A. M. Rodger, The Wooden World, An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy, William Collins, 1986).

--Justin

The United States did not even HAVE the rank of "Admiral" in any form at all when the US Navy first introduced the rank/position/title of Commodore. The first US Admiral of any grade whatsoever was in 1862, Commodore having been used since much earlier than that.

 

[Gary7]

^ Actually, there's 3 states: Active, Inactive, or discharged. The "inactive" state means you're still subscribed but no longer reporting for duty anywhere. But... if the statement "left Starfleet" is made, we can assume discharged instead of inactive. In any case, it's kind of splitting hairs. He wasn't active in Starfleet for some notable period of time, pure and simple.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Even in the "real world", commissioned officers who have served for a certain amount of time are never "discharged". They are always "inactive", even though they have retired.

 

[mtblillie]

^^ I wonder if the military reserves the right to reactivate certain officers in critical times. I'm sure if it does happen it is relatively rare, compared to what you see on TV.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Yes, they do. That's the point of them being "Inactive". The full term is "Inactive reserve". Reserve meaning of course "able to be called to active duty".