Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by oddsigve, Sep 26, 2013.
Plus the Excalibans are, y'know, rocks.
Actually, as per the definition of the concept, being atheistic DOES preclude having mysticism, mythology, superstition or beliefs in an afterlife - unless they are proven and not based on faith.
As for the klingons, their belief is based on faith. Most of them are devoutly religious.
PS - buddhism is a religion as well.
^Irreligion and atheism, although often associated, are not the same thing. Moreover, many Buddhists have no gods (including the Buddha). The OP concerns the portrayal of gods, not religion in general. If the latter were so, we would need to discuss things like Vulcan religion.
Well, maybe not Buddha, but l can think of a few religious figures that wouldn't blush compared to Kahless...
As an atheist, I wish that was true. But atheism is not necessarily based on rationalism. I know atheists who believe in ghosts.
Correct. Then it was Federation propaganda at the expense of the Klingons?
@ Edit XYZ
While Buddhism is practised as a religion in Eastern Asia I recall reading that when the Buddha passed away he asked that his teachings are remembered and cherished, not his person.
And supposedly the Dalai Lama once said "We are not here to believe but to learn". This doesn't strike me as religion but rather a "constitutionalized" philosophy / spirituality.
Exactly. That wasn't the real Kahless, that was how the crew of the Enterprise imagined Kahless, based on their own experiences with Klingons and what little they knew (or thought they knew) of Klingon history.
I imagine the clone on DS9 was closer to the real thing.
How does that prove anything? People get married by Elvis today. I'd imagine in Star Trek getting married by a minister would be about the same thing.
Well I guess getting married by Elvis is more meaningful than being married by a member of the military as Trek puts forth as the status quo.
I just picked up a book at the library dealing with the religons of Star Trek. There was a lot of religous beliefs during all of the series. TOS had tons of religous references in it and dealt directly ("Who Mourns For Adonis" for example). The Bajorans were deeply religous and that was a theme in both TNG as well as the entirety of DS9. DS9 was hugely based around religon. Voyager had some religous type themes from time to time.
Apollo seemed like an adolescent version of Trelane ("Squire of Gothos") who needed worship rather badly but didn't answer "why?". Looks as if just like Trelane he used people for his amusement like toys and had these kill off one another just like in the legend of Troy. The opening line of the episode could suggest that:
CAROLYN: Here's the report on Pollux Five, Captain. This entire system has been almost the same. A strange lack of intelligent life on the planets. It bugs the percentages.
In general, TOS attacked the petrified beliefs in false gods, but I don't see that much debate regarding actual religious or spiritual matters and IIRC that's one thing Gene Roddenberry wanted to keep out of Star Trek.
Wasn't it made rather clear early on that the Bajorans believed the wormhole aliens to be gods? I remember mostly all the conflicts that arose from the religious organization they had set up but not really that any spiritual issues were really discussed or explored.
Nice Trek BBS name you picked. I'd assume that some BBS members would have felt that should have been mine...
For the most part, representations of Bajoran religion fall into three categories: the role of the Emissary, involvement in Bajoran politics, and Kira's religious practices. the nature of the Prophets is discussed in a few Emissary episodes, perhaps no more prominently than in Sacrifice of Angels, when Sisko challenged them to "be gods." In terms what the Bajorans believe about the Prophets, I think thsoe fall more into Kira's representation, such as when she prays for Jadzia to get a baby or when Winn consults her about the Prophets' forgiveness. Whatever the Bajorans feel about them, I don't think that the Prophets feel that they are playing the role of gods to the Bajorans.
One of the early episodes of "The Orb" features an interesting discussion about how Sisko is basically Moses in space.
Considering that person is generally the commanding officer of the bride and/or groom, ie, the person they trust with their lives on a daily basis, and often, a friendly face or even close friend, I'm not seeing any particular reason why this kind of marriage ceremony should be considered any less meaningful than any 'normal' church wedding.
I had someone once tell me that they thought DS9 was portraying Isreal and the Arabs with Bajor and Cardassia playing the roles on the show. I could actually see that. When Ro was introduced they kind of established that Bajorans were deeply religous. Sisko was seen by those people as a religous figure which was not popular amoung Starfleet Command.
I think some members of the admiralty didn't like the idea of a Starfleet officer being hailed as a messiah and spiritual leader by an entire civilization.
^ Disregarding that Sisko actually was the emissary, and was brought into existance by the Prophets to be the emissary.
But what does the Emissary do? What is the role of the Emissary?
To find the Wormhole/Celestial Temple? Not really, he was not the first in chronologically. May be the first to talk to the Prophets directly? Could be, but then what about the "A Gutted World"?
To break a tablet?
The guy you call when you loose the keys to your wormhole?
Actually, that's disregarding that Sisko was a Starfleet officer on a mission for the Federation. The whole Emissary business was a Bajoran internal thing and not the reason why Starfleet sent him there.
I have always viewed Star Trek as Atheistic. Earth, in my interpretation, is thankfully largely free of all the 'gods' that humanity has dreamt up. However, there are some last vestiges of these beliefs kicking about [Phlox in Enterprise mentions a Mass in St Peterburg].
In general, to me, the Federation and humanity in particular, is Atheist but open minded enough not to chastise people for their beliefs. There is a greater understanding of the universe and an appreciation for the philosophy behind our existence instead of embracing silly ancient texts.
As for DS9, those wormhole aliens actually existed. They also posses vast power like other aliens we have encountered. They may be 'gods' to the more primitive Bajorans but not to the Federation [as Dax highlights].
The Prophets do not exist in linear or chronological time. His being the first or not doesn't matter.
Novels are non-canon. Further, the book was written in 2008, after DS-9 ended. It doesn't make sense to use this novel, even if you consider it canon, as nullifying The Sisko's role. If anything, the novel is the one that contradicts the series, not the other way around. That is, if it indeed contradicts the series. Contacting The Prophets not be the (sole) reason for The Sisko.
Well, he spared the Bajoran people from the Dominion. If Bajor had joined the Federation as planned, the Dominion would have destroyed Bajor.
Separate names with a comma.