The Q or the Prophets?

[Nightdiamond]

Can suspend time (sacrifice of angels)

Do you mean when they bring a person into a poorly lit world and talk to the person using the appearance of someone else? Usually when they do that to Sisko, someone notices that he's not there. It would seem like a second or two has passed, more of a slow time down than actually suspend it.

That's a good point, I might have to rethink that ability. When they do things like that, it gets a bit tricky.


In Sacrifice of Angels, right at the moment when Sisko orders the crew to fire on his command, he was suddenly mentally transported to an alternate world where he meets the Prophets.

The conversation they have lasts almost 5 minutes, and when he returns, he seems to return at the exact moment he gave the order, because Obrien is responding to his order, and nobody notices that he was "away".

That seems to suggest the Prophets "compressed" the entire encounter.

The Dominion ships were already locking weapons on the Defiant, and they were approaching rapidly. A mere 2 minutes more and they probably would have started firing and that's what Sisko would have come back to.

The conversation did occur, took about 5 minutes, yet, Sisko returned to the point where he gave the order to fire on his command.

That's the tricky part- whether it was suspending time itself, or a mental telepathy thing.

With the Q, in one epsode Q stops the crew from reaching their destination. He creates a world with characters, transports the crew there, and the encounter lasts almost 15 minutes.

Afterwards he returns the crew back to the ship, and they find themselves still on course to where they were going, without any interruption.

Q does it differently, but the Prophets do almost the same thing.

In fact, as far the orbs or from inside the wormhole , the Prophets appear to be able to do any thing the Q can do.

Outside the wormhole, an Orb transported the Defiant across time, and a mere piece of another Orb created actual physical phenomena out of thoughts.

With the Organians, one could appear in multiple places at once (kind of cool too).

Those are the parts that makes the whole thing tricky...

 

[Kalandrian]

You could also include the Organians from TOS. They could easily of defeated both the Feds and Klingons if they wanted to.

 

[NKemp3]

Why does this question keep popping up? Its no contest. The Q are (is) more powerful. The Prophets' power is not only limited by comparison, its a power that doesn't exist outside of the wormhole/celestial temple.

 

[adamisme]

Q would probably try and annoy the prophets, but they'd be so indifferent to him, he would get bored and go away

 

[Nightdiamond]

Some of the Prophets' power have been demonstrated outside the wormhole.

An Orb transported the entire Defiant into the past, in normal space. From what I understand, an Orb is susposed to be a simple tool that the Prophets use.

And on Bajor, a village priest used a simple piece of an Orb, to create a weird monster, along with weather disturbances, and lightening that actually struck things, etc. And it was created out of thought.

Now the question with this is, what could an actual Prophet have done rather than the Orb?

They transported a Bajoran who thought he was the emissary back to his past, to Bajoran space itself, which is in real space.

They altered the personality of Grand Negus Zek from within the wormhole, but sent him out of it and he remained like that until Quark convinced them to change him back.

The Pah Wraiths resurrected Dukat after being dead for a number of minutes. Did something similar with Kieko.

Demonstrated powerful energy on the station during that battle between the Prophets and Pah Wraiths.

I have at least one theory for the Orbs- they use them the same way we use machines or computers to do things, just a theory..


As for the Organians, they could have easily have done that if they were interested.

I like that, 'even as I' speak to you I'm speaking to all other' .. ability they showed.

They seemed to have the same 'ugh, unevolved beings' attitude that the Prophets, Q, and some other beings have shown.




If a piece of the Orb can be used as a reality-creating device, how far could it go, and what could an actual Prophet do?

 

[JustKate]

I can understand believing it's likely that the Q are more powerful than the Prophets...what I don't get is certainty that the Q are the most powerful, something that some people participating in this thread seem to have. That just baffles me. The Prophets just don't seem to be interested in the same things that most of the residents of the universe are interested in and that includes the Q. They have no interest in displaying power just for the fun of it, unlike at least one or two members of the Continuum. They just go along doing whatever it is that they want to do - serene and untroubled, even when they appear to be in jeopardy. So how can we know what they can and can't do if they have no interest in demonstrating it?

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, you are right in that the Q are likely not the ultimate in all of Trek's "Higher Races". It's just that they are the most recognized and had the most appearances showing off omnipotent powers. But there's nothing that says they are truly THAT much more powerful than the Organians or the Prophets.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's true, out of all aliens we've seen in trek, the Q have demonstrated unbelievable powers the most.

That's one reason why I tend to list things that the Prophets have done, because it gets more tricky with them.

They definetely are vulnerable- chronitons affect them and can kill them, which seems to bring them down a notch from Q's level.

On the other hand, they seem capable of warping reality itself if you think about it.

If they exist at all points of time, can travel through time, affect the past, present, or future at will, that seems to give them a tremendous amount of power.

They changed Bajoran history a bit, by returning the Bajoran who thought he was the emisarry to his own time. He finished a poem that was previously, unfinished.

Sisko shook hands with Kirk because of their orb.

Kira (possibly) could have prevented the Dominion war when she consulted the Orb of time, assuming the Prophets had allowed her.

This would give them the ability to twist and alter reality at will, assuming they wanted to...

From JustKate:

........The Prophets just don't seem to be interested in the same things that most of the residents of the universe are interested in and that includes the Q.
They have no interest in displaying power just for the fun of it, unlike at least one or two members of the Continuum.

They just go along doing whatever it is that they want to do - serene and untroubled, even when they appear to be in jeopardy. So how can we know what they can and can't do if they have no interest in demonstrating it?

And that's the other tricky part, that they like being isolated and seem uninterested in displaying any power.

Making an armada of ships simply vanish was an awesome display of power, because we don't know what happened to them or where they went. I think that was what really got our attention about them in the first place.

Trek and DS9 cannon doesn't say if this is just an ability they have only inside the wormhole, so it get tricky at that point too..


I still give the edge to Q for obvious reasons, but the more you look into it...

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah, exactly. The obvious answer - and don't get me wrong, often the obvious answer is the correct one, and that might very well be the case here - is that since the Q display more power, the Q are more powerful. But with the Prophets...we just don't know. We don't have enough data to know. They never cared enough to give us any data - unlike the Q, who rather like that kind of thing.

How can you compare two races that defy comparison? How can you compare two races that are both completely outside our experience and capabilities? Which is more powerful, an earthquake or a gigantic flood? A nuclear winter or the greenhouse effect?

 

[ProStar]

I think the Prophets and Q are the same side of the same Coin. They are like a pair of Twins with the Organians being a cousin. The Prophets are more reserved don't like showing off and only use there powers when pushed to. Q is meanwhile likes showing off, creating havoc and anonamolys. They (Prophets) sent orbs with varingly different powers. The Q might have weakness's but they have never been shown. Everything has!

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the Prophets and Q are the same side of the same Coin. They are like a pair of Twins with the Organians being a cousin. The Prophets are more reserved don't like showing off and only use there powers when pushed to. Q is meanwhile likes showing off, creating havoc and anonamolys. They (Prophets) sent orbs with varingly different powers. The Q might have weakness's but they have never been shown. Everything has!

I think the main argument against the Prophets being as 'all powerful' as Q is that, they either show limitation in their abilities, or just don't display the same abilities as Q has.

I think the most obvious ability is how Q can instantly appear wherever he wants, and in whatever form he wants. The Prophets seem to have to use visions, orbs, or mind telepathy to appear in different forms to speak to people.

In the entire series, we never see them appear, in normal space- in a physical form of their choosing.

Even the Organians had the ability to appear in physical form. Strange, since they were noncoporeal beings like the Prophets.

Now that I look at it, the Organians may be just as powerful as both of them.

They were able to affect and disable every Klingon and Federation ship in the Alpha Quadrant.

Being able to sense things from a distance. One being being in three places at one.

They were said to be millions of years ahead of humanoid life in evolution.

I don't doubt the Prophets can disable ships, but can they do it all at once like the Organians? Or could they make all the panels and weapons selectivly hot so no one can touch them?

And the main thing - could Prophets actually appear in physical form if they wanted?

We all know the Q can, but it becomes a curious question with the Prophets....

Still, their answer to stopping the Dominion ships was to simply make them disappear- Based on how little I saw them do, I sort of thought they might just disable them, or turn them around and send them out.

In a way, they went way farther than the Q or the Organians with that one.



And we have throw another entity in the mix, Trelane. This one created planets at will. Made objects appear almost like Q did. And transported people to places instantly.

Back to the Prophets, they don't do many physical things like Q or other entities, but the one thing I keep bringing up- a piece of their orb could create reality out thoughts- makes you wonder what are they capable of doing if they really wanted.

 

[Damask]

I think the most obvious ability is how Q can instantly appear wherever he wants, and in whatever form he wants. The Prophets seem to have to use visions, orbs, or mind telepathy to appear in different forms to speak to people.

Well is that important? The Prophets have affected the entire Alpha Quandrant (and Gamma actually) and they've never left in their house.

In the entire series, we never see them appear, in normal space- in a physical form of their choosing.

Which I don't really see is any indication of their power at all. They told Sisko at the start that they weren't concerned with corporeal stuff or linear time. The fact that they live outside linear time seems more powerfull than trying to appear in normal space.

And the main thing - could Prophets actually appear in physical form if they wanted?

I'm not sure how the Prophets appearing in a physical form is the main thing?

Back to the Prophets, they don't do many physical things like Q or other entities, but the one thing I keep bringing up- a piece of their orb could create reality out thoughts- makes you wonder what are they capable of doing if they really wanted.

Sure but I don't think them appearing in normal space as themselves is any indication of their power. They're non corporeal but choosing a physical form I don't think is a weakness.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That was my basic conclusion too- being totally non-coporeal and not doing 'physical things' doesn't neccesarily make them less powerful or god-like even.

There's an opinion that the Prophets power is greater only inside the wormhole, and that outside of it, it diminishes. Meaning that they can't effect much of anything outside of it.

If the Dominion ships were'nt in that wormhole but had already came out of it when Sisko met them, then the idea is that they would have not been able to make them vanish, so the opinion goes..

So the same thing goes for their ability to appear in a physical form- a Pah Wraith had to use Dukat's body and had to use a transporter to get to DS9, instead of doing what Q would do, just appear there instantly.

Or, when the Prophet was released from the Orb by Sisko, it had to travel, rather than instantly teleport itself - to the wormhole.

Those are probably seen as limits compared to what other entities like Q have been seen doing.

And Kai Win using coporeal-federation technology to force the Prophet and Pah Wraith out of Kira and Jake, is another example of weakness used by naysayers.

That's why or most likely why Starfleet and outsiders refer to them as "Wormhole Aliens" instead of "Prophets"..

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Q are omnipotent, and the Prophets are omniscient.
You can be sure that the Prophets are ready for whatever Q tries, and that they changed history to counter it. Q should have enough power to be prepared for everything the Prophets try.

The prophets are weak to chroniton radiation. The Q, also, have weaknesses - as established in Voyager.

The unstoppable force meets the immovable obstacle.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Q are omnipotent, and the Prophets are omniscient.
You can be sure that the Prophets are ready for whatever Q tries, and that they changed history to counter it. Q should have enough power to be prepared for everything the Prophets try.

The prophets are weak to chroniton radiation. The Q, also, have weaknesses - as established in Voyager.

The unstoppable force meets the immovable obstacle.

Bingo, case closed, lol

Fair enough - the Prophets don't respond to certain threats because obviously they don't fully work - They already knew, so did nothing. I mean, after all, they still existed when the series ended, so...

So they maintain a god-like detachment, only taking action when it 'concerns' them.

They can study a culture's entire history in less than a moment, alter time at will, exist at every point in time. Omniscience.

The Q can control or create almost any phenomena, like 'changing the gravitational constant of the universe' whatever that means, moving a moon with a snap of the fingers, shrinking any object down to the size of a palm, including lifeforms. Omnipotence.


They can also travel through time, like the Prophets, but existing at all points in time is something we haven't seen. The Prophets seem to have forseen the Pah Wraiths being free and resuming their conflict, and acted to create Sisko to stop it.

The Q didn't seem to see their war coming, and got caught up in it. They could, but it seems they would have to travel through time to do it, rather than just seeing it automatically.

And compare the Dowd, Organians, Trelane, very powerful, seemingly omnipotent too, yet displayed no time travel abilities as far we know, though the Organians prediction about the Federation and the Klingons being friends may be an indication.

 

[mackula]

Is there anything that the Q can't do?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Is there anything that the Q can't do?

Seems like they can do anything they want, the way they want.

Still, they may have some limitations and weaknesses; Other Q can take away each other's power, or turn another into a full human.

In "Q who", when Q saw Guinan, he seemed very surprised to find her there, and then Guinan raised her hands in some sort of protective gesture, as if it could actually stop Q.

Quinn said that thinking of the Q as omnipotent would be a mistake, comparing how we use our technology to do things, with their "powers".

Boredom seems to be a serious weakness for them too.

 

[mackula]

In "Q who", when Q saw Guinan, he seemed very surprised to find her there, and then Guinan raised her hands in some sort of protective gesture, as if it could actually stop Q.

Actually I have always found that extremely funny in a cheesy way. Maybe Guinan actually was immune to anything that Q could do. However I imagine that he could turn her into an Irish Setter like he did to Dr. Crusher. That was hysterical. If it was a battle of sense of humor, Q of course takes it.

But as it has been noted, they also seem to be their own worse enemy which could be the biggest weakness between the two.

 

[Nightdiamond]

In "Q who", when Q saw Guinan, he seemed very surprised to find her there, and then Guinan raised her hands in some sort of protective gesture, as if it could actually stop Q.

Actually I have always found that extremely funny in a cheesy way. Maybe Guinan actually was immune to anything that Q could do. However I imagine that he could turn her into an Irish Setter like he did to Dr. Crusher. That was hysterical. If it was a battle of sense of humor, Q of course takes it.

But as it has been noted, they also seem to be their own worse enemy which could be the biggest weakness between the two.

That was one of the funniest things I saw Q do, I've read of a lot of other viewers finding that scene funny too.

It was funny too, because Crusher had no idea what had happened and kept going on and on! (geesh)

If he had chosen a seal instead, right now I would be saying Q was more powerful and leave it at that....


I don't know what Guinan could have done, but obviously it seemed to have bothered Q that she was there. She also seemed to have been aware of other Qs and their personalities, so maybe she was a bit more than just... mortal...

 

[Freman]

Yeah, but who would win in a fight? My dad, or your dad?