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The Punisher-- Marvel/Netflix

Alidar Jarok said:
I expected it to be the long weekend before, not the same weekend as Justice League.
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I remember seeing something on facebook - about a previous marvel netflix show being on the same day as a DC movie. Seems okay at the moment. Avoiding most spoilers with this - knew when I heard a certain voice - knew it was Shohreh Aghdashloo. That made smile.

Even with the mixed reviews - I'll decide later if I'll continue to watch it, as I'm watching the first half dozen episodes tonight.
 
What the punisher is out today?? I've been a couch potato all day watching netflix and had no idea.

*Tries to reach Xbox controller without leaving couch*
 
Is this not showing up on Netflix for anyone else? Even a search doesn't bring it up for me. Just one of the movies.

ETA: That was a first. I ended up having to log into Netflix on my computer & start the first episode there. When I logged back in on my TV it was suddenly there. I've never had that happen before.
 
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I decided to watch it despite my reservations, because I'm a completist, because I liked Bernthal's performance in Daredevil despite not liking his character, and because Karen Page was in it and I didn't want to miss out on a part of her story arc. Also, it turns out the female lead, Amber Rose Revah, is really beautiful, so I want to keep watching for her.

So far, two episodes in, I'm not hugely impressed. Some things work okay, others not so much. Madani's partner Stein is annoying. When a character's very first line is stilted exposition for the audience -- "As your newly assigned partner"? Seriously? -- it's not a good sign, and his supposed witty banter was just as clumsy.

Also, in episode 2, as soon as the guy started playing "Ain't That a Kick in the Head" on his stereo, I knew there was about to be a fight scene. Yes. Kick. Fight. We get it. That's only the second time I've seen that gag used (the first was in Mission: Impossible -- Ghost Protocol), and it's already a predictable cliche.
 
The violence is gratuitous, the veteran stereotypes are terrible, far too many cliché action show moments, even more characters doing stupid shit for the sake of the plot, and so many contrivances that allow characters to get away.

I was drawn to this show to see what they would do with Frank Castle's story, but I stayed for David "Micro" Lieberman's story instead. I enjoyed the dynamics between the two characters and the contrast between their families' fates, and only the desire to see where their stories ended kept me going through the slog of mediocre writing, excessive violence, and psychotic characters. Karen Page and Dinah Madani were pluses, too, even if they had their moments of sheer stupidity.

I'll watch all of the Netflix shows again and again (well, maybe only once more for Iron Fist), but I have absolutely no desire to watch The Punisher again.

Ethros said:
This article kinda sums up my feelings
The Punisher’s wasted opportunity: It’s basically not in the Marvel Universe.
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I felt like there was some kind of false bottom in the show, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. That article clearly articulates it.
 
Emh said:
The violence is gratuitous
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That pretty much sums up the entire concept of the Punisher right there. He embodies violence taken to excess. So I knew that going in. The question for me is, does the series do enough beyond that to be worth watching in spite of that? And does it show Castle struggling against or being troubled by his unhealthy tendency toward violence, or just wallowing in it?

The first episode at least showed him trying to put it all behind him. There were moments when the construction jerks were taunting him and you could see the barely restrained violence in his cold-blooded gaze, and it seemed pretty clear from there: This man is not a hero. He is damaged and dangerous. And it doesn't seem to be glorifying his violence, but portraying him almost as a horror-movie predator. Still, whether it does enough exploration of the issues raised by his violence to justify its depiction remains to be seen. A number of the reviewers seem to think it doesn't.
 
To be clear, when I say violence is gratuitous, I mean excessive and without meaning (i.e. it largely doesn't explore those issues of violence like you hope). I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that. I just feel...gross after watching the season (aside from the parts I highlighted).
 
Emh said:
To be clear, when I say violence is gratuitous, I mean excessive and without meaning (i.e. it largely doesn't explore those issues of violence like you hope). I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that.
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I think you were clear enough. What I meant was, I expect the Punisher to be about excessive, gratuitous, meaningless violence. That's the character's defining trait. He was created to be a villain, after all. His own creator Gerry Conway has expressed discomfort with seeing him portrayed as a protagonist, since he was never meant to be one. I find the very existence of this series somewhat gratuitous and highly problematical, but I'm watching it anyway for the reasons I gave above. I'm just hoping it has some aspects that compensate for the problems.
 
flavaflav said:
As far as the violence goes, it is no worse than Daredevil.
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I think it's a lot more extreme than that, a lot more brutal and lethal. I didn't even look at the screen for most of the climactic flashback sequence in episode 3.

Indeed, I'd say equating them is somewhat missing the point of the characters. Daredevil is a man who teeters on the brink of violence, who values life and tries to be good but is willing to go right up to the line and barely stays on the right side of it. The Punisher is a man who went far over that line a long time ago and never found his way back. Indeed, the flashbacks in episode 3 showed us how his wartime experiences pushed him further and further beyond that line. Their whole point was to be more extreme than anything we've seen any other Marvel protagonist do. It's integral to the character that his violence is more extreme. It would be getting him wrong if it weren't. (Indeed, three episodes in, I'm already a little tired of other characters insisting that Frank is a good man. I think that's grossly oversimplifying at best.)


Meanwhile, I guess it was inevitable that this would be a guy-oriented show, but I could do with a stronger female presence. So far, the show has only passed the Bechdel test by virtue of Madani's scenes with her mother and Sarah Lieberman's scenes with her daughter. I wonder if we'll be seeing any interaction among Dina, Karen, and Sarah.

Speaking of the kids, it's weird to see the same actors playing the Lieberman kids in the flashbacks and in the present day. Isn't there something like a couple of years in between those?
 
Christopher said:
I think it's a lot more extreme than that, a lot more brutal and lethal. I didn't even look at the screen for most of the climactic flashback sequence in episode 3.
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Same here. It was so grotesque. And yet, there's worse to come.

Christopher said:
Meanwhile, I guess it was inevitable that this would be a guy-oriented show, but I could do with a stronger female presence. So far, the show has only passed the Bechdel test by virtue of Madani's scenes with her mother and Sarah Lieberman's scenes with her daughter. I wonder if we'll be seeing any interaction among Dina, Karen, and Sarah.
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The show does need a stronger female presence, but what they do have is good at least. Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, there's only one other reoccurring female character who is introduced after episode 3 (assuming that's where you are now). I can't help but notice that there isn't a single woman in the special forces group Frank and company were in. Granted, that's largely reflective to the real world, but none of this is real world (despite the earlier article that demonstrated that this show isn't in the Marvel universe either).

Christopher said:
Speaking of the kids, it's weird to see the same actors playing the Lieberman kids in the flashbacks and in the present day. Isn't there something like a couple of years in between those?
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No, it's only one year. Might not be clear where you're at now, but there are multiple references to David being on the run for only a year.
 
Emh said:
No, it's only one year. Might not be clear where you're at now, but there are multiple references to David being on the run for only a year.
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Ah, okay. I guess I was mixing it up with Castle's flashbacks, which seem to show his kids the same age both before and after his tour in Afghanistan. How long was he over there?
 
He said in one episode that he did 15-month tours, so I'm guessing Operation Cerberus was about that long.
 
Through it in three days faster than any other of the Netflix shows. And it is the first of the 13 episode ones that lacks the slow start or the drag in the middle, so pacing wise it was pretty great. It has it's flaws of course, quite a few cliches and some storytelling shortcuts, but overall an immensely enjoyable roller coaster ride.
(I suspect Frank is either Inhuman or related to Wolverine.)
 
Beagleman said:
Through it in three days faster than any other of the Netflix shows.
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I'm the opposite -- I feel much less motivated to binge through this than any of the previous Marv-flix shows. I actually had to psych myself up to even bother to keep watching: "Hey, you sat through Inhumans, so you can see this through too."

I'm finding a fair amount of cliche in this, like the soldier digging a foxhole to sleep in and the trope of Character A realizing that Character B isn't listening and therefore saying something totally absurd so Character B will nod and agree. I mean, okay, you don't expect The Punisher to be a laugh riot, but some competent comic relief would be appreciated.

By the way, I found Lewis/foxhole guy familiar, and it turns out he was a regular in the lame Australian K9 series unofficially spun off of Doctor Who.
 
MASSIVE disconnect between GA and critics on this one. 9.3 on IMDB vs 67% on RT... 9.3 is super high.
 
I don't know why people are complaining about violence in The Punisher. It works fine, at least two episodes in. Honestly, it could stand to be more violent. He's all about viciously murdering criminals. If you don't like that (and I can understand not liking it, even if I don't have the same problem) then don't watch The Punisher. Now, violence is not all that a Punisher story needs needs (Punisher Warzone was very violent but its still really mediocre because the story is garbage and its Frank Castle isn't even really a character), but the violence it does have should be, well, shocking. Frank Castle is not a good guy. At best he's an anti-hero, and he's one of the most violent in Marvel Comics. Toning that down would be a disservice to the character.

He's not one of The Defenders. His show should make the original Robocop film look tame. They're doing ok with that so far in my opinion. Its not going to be for everyone, which is fine. Personally I'm liking the show a good deal and probably tie it for second place with DD Season 2 at this point (with DD S1 being the top show still).
 
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