The powers of propaganda and media.

[Nightdiamond]

One reason may be that Star Wars became a cottage industry that the fans could participate in. All the concepts you see in Star Wars has a detailed history behind it.

Take the Jedi - not only did they developed a mystical cult/religion, with a cool catch phrase, they also invented detailed fighting styles for their light saber combat. And a detailed history.

Sci fi fans really like things like this, so you got tons of books, RPG games, video games, forums.

Some fans really take the force idea seriously.


Star Wars is a lot more sillier than Trek, but its world is a lot more larger and interactive.

Smart move from George Lucas. Star wars is fun.

 

[Melakon]

You can't generalize based on a sample size of one.

I'm not trying to. The very idea of this post is to make a debate about "what if it's that way... or what if it's not..." C'mon, you can't just deny that Star Wars has A LOT more propaganda and media attention.

Yeah, but you said, "But that doesn't change the fact that my friend [etc.]," as if that countered what Melakon said. My point is that your experience with your friend doesn't impact what Melakon said in the slightest.

I couldn't figure out what his reply had to do with my comment, so I dropped out of the conversation at that point.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Can't they just both be awesome?

They're both the best at what they do, and neither wants to do what the other does. (Although, I suppose you could say NuTrek wants to do what Star Wars does. Hell, they were written by a guy who loves Star Wars and never got Star Trek.)

 

[eyeresist]

One reason may be that Star Wars became a cottage industry that the fans could participate in. All the concepts you see in Star Wars has a detailed history behind it.

Take the Jedi - not only did they developed a mystical cult/religion, with a cool catch phrase, they also invented detailed fighting styles for their light saber combat. And a detailed history.

Sci fi fans really like things like this, so you got tons of books, RPG games, video games, forums.

Doesn't Trek have these things too?

 

[Nightdiamond]

One reason may be that Star Wars became a cottage industry that the fans could participate in. All the concepts you see in Star Wars has a detailed history behind it.

Take the Jedi - not only did they developed a mystical cult/religion, with a cool catch phrase, they also invented detailed fighting styles for their light saber combat. And a detailed history.

Sci fi fans really like things like this, so you got tons of books, RPG games, video games, forums.

Doesn't Trek have these things too?

True, it does. You have the Klingon institute that actually created a language out of Klingon.

I think the difference is Star Wars went into much more detail and history with their lore.

For example, light saber combat has at least seven different style, names and techniques.

A Jedi or Sith has several different levels and abilities and such.

All this really appeals to kids and devoted fans.

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

One reason may be that Star Wars became a cottage industry that the fans could participate in. All the concepts you see in Star Wars has a detailed history behind it.

Take the Jedi - not only did they developed a mystical cult/religion, with a cool catch phrase, they also invented detailed fighting styles for their light saber combat. And a detailed history.

Sci fi fans really like things like this, so you got tons of books, RPG games, video games, forums.

Doesn't Trek have these things too?

True, it does. You have the Klingon institute that actually created a language out of Klingon.

I think the difference is Star Wars went into much more detail and history with their lore.

For example, light saber combat has at least seven different style, names and techniques.

A Jedi or Sith has several different levels and abilities and such.

All this really appeals to kids and devoted fans.

well... Last time i cheeked we had complete religion on Bajorans, complete economic system for the Ferengi, culture for Vulcans, language culture and rituals on Klingons, a military-based culture for Cardassians, religion / hierarchy for the Dominion, hell, even the Romulans had their bit of data.

And about Trek tech, i don't have to mention that there are thousands and thousands of equipment, tools, settings, weapons, tactics, maneuvers, etc...

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

Look people, the fact is, i am afraid that Trek is dying! The fans are slowly getting more rare! While Star Wars fans appear everywhere! They are both sci-fi! Why Wars have more atention? That is the question i'm making!

No problem on Wars been more popular. The thing is, at least Star Trek should keep it's place as second, and it's seems more and more to be getting "old" and forgotten.

Yeah, we got the new movies, yes, i like them, but the thing is, i don't want to see the characters that we came to love just vanish into oblivion! I know it's not my problem, but i can't simply stand still with the thinking that the characters that i toke (and take today) as role models and inspiration will never be remembered someday.

They deserve more! Trek deserve more!

 

[Lexx Shrapnel]

It had a great run and the Trek experience is 200 years if you read all the books.

 

[MacLeod]

Well both SW and ST have managed to transcend what they are and enter the public consciousness.

But perhaps there is still a bit of a stigma attached to TV Sci-Fi. Whilkst people go in their droves to watch Sci-Fi & Fantasy films at the cinema.

 

[T'Girl]

For example, light saber combat has at least seven different style, names and techniques.

Each way of holding a lightsaber has a different recognized name.

And the different ways of holding a phaser, what are they called again?

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

It had a great run and the Trek experience is 200 years if you read all the books.

It did, but, it's aging as the effects and technology evolve (I don't know how Wars is not). It may had a great run, yes, but you are forgetting about all the people that will come after, the new trekkers!

I for example, it feels sad to think the series i love exist in old TV shows that don't get more credit those days. If that's the way it is now, imagine years from now! I wish that Trek had keep up with the passage of time, but it looks like the new generation is just more stupid (sorry the word) and the ones that actually have capacity to understand Trek are getting rare and rare.

OBS: I'm not a Star Wars hater ok? I like Star Wars and Darth Vader is awesome. Wen i said capacity to understand i mean as general, not only Star Wars fans. Because even Wars is losing popularity close to new stuff like Vampire movies. I only mention Wars as a example since it's the closest thing to Trek that has a number of popularity.

Please, don't tell me sci-fy is dying, because it's pretty much all i like to watch.

 

[Melakon]

I once couldn't imagine life without Howdy Doody, but that day arrived in 1960.

 

[fireproof78]

At the risk of sounding too optimistic, I don't think Star Trek is dying. I think it is at a cultural crossroads where the PTB are uncertain what the best marketing path is to continue. Abrams Trek was a good step for them to try and feel where where the future might be, but it obviously is still a long road.

As for Star Wars, I think I said this in another thread, but I will attempt to state it again. Star Wars is constantly reinventing itself, and going after the younger market, wherever that might take them. They tried Clone Wars as an animated show, and then went and did a second version of the same concept, but a little bit different animation. Now they have a new show, designed to appeal to fans of CW, as well as younger kids.

And, Star Wars is every where, because that's what they do. Star Trek is getting there, in terms of marketing, but it is a little slower, and a little more cautious, to see what sticks. But, I'm encouraged by what I see, with Attack Wing, Star Trek Online, and other merchandising.

I think Star Trek has a certain appeal that is gained through more exposure. I did not care for DS9 the first time through, but now, being older, I appreciate the meatiness of the stories being told.

tl:dr Star Trek has a future, but it doesn't always appear that way. Let new fans age and they will likely appreciate the older shows more.

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

THANKS fireproof78

That's the kind of thing i was hoping to hear! as you said, it's been a long road, but i've got faith of the heart that Star Trek will live on where our hearts will take him.

To many ENT references, i know.

 

[Nightdiamond]

well... Last time i cheeked we had complete religion on Bajorans, complete economic system for the Ferengi, culture for Vulcans, language culture and rituals on Klingons, a military-based culture for Cardassians, religion / hierarchy for the Dominion, hell, even the Romulans had their bit of data.

Yes it's true Trek has its versions of religion and social concepts, but Star Wars went into much more serious detail, like it was designing a board game or something.

Trek will say phasers exist, but it'll stop there.

Star Wars will explain exactly how a light sabre works, its history, and how they're built, along with the several different fighting styles and the philosophies behind each one.

It's all BS, but they go the extra mile to put out as much detail as possible.

With the Bajorans, it was ancient people find Orbs from the sky, they start a religion with monks, Vedics and Kais.

With Star Wars, you have the Jedi and Sith codes (which are bizarre if you're not familiar with them.) Their different ways of looking at life and the force. The history which includes wars, betrayals, "the split", empires and so on.


Star Wars way of doing it latches on to the mainstream and marketing a bit more.

There is something different about waving your hand and using a Jedi mind trick ("you don't need to see our identification"), compared to "follow the ways of the Prophets" or something.

Or flicking a button and powering up a light saber with your own fighting technique and philosophy.


The way Star Wars describes it--is just cool to the average fan.

For example, light saber combat has at least seven different style, names and techniques.

Each way of holding a lightsaber has a different recognized name.

And the different ways of holding a phaser, what are they called again?

It's just that extra detail that makes the whole concept so cool and fun to indulge in.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well both SW and ST have managed to transcend what they are and enter the public consciousness.

But perhaps there is still a bit of a stigma attached to TV Sci-Fi. Whilkst people go in their droves to watch Sci-Fi & Fantasy films at the cinema.

Very few sci-fi films do that well in theatres to say "people go in droves" to see them. Sure last year we had Guardians of the Galaxy own the summer box office, but before that what was the previous sci-fi movie to enjoy any kind of success at the box office? I'm thinking Avatar, and before that the Star Wars prequels.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Honestly I've always hated this "Which is better Star Wars vs. Star Trek" crap.

Because, aside from the fact they are both sci-fi series, they really don't have that much in common.

Star Trek has had 5 TV series and 12 movies. There are literally hundreds of different, and often unconnected storylines, with dozens if not hundreds of important characters.

Star Wars currently has 6 movies covering one basic story arc with several subplots, with maybe 20 or so important characters. Of course that will change in December but still.

You're talking about Star Trek having hundreds of hours, maybe even a thousand versus Star Wars having about 15 hours. And I'm not getting into all that books and cartoons and expanded universe stuff. I'm talking about things that were filmed with actors and released for public consumption.

It's like comparing the collective works of Sherlock Holmes (Star Trek) to War and Peace (Star Wars).

Even their lives are completely different. Star Trek was something that was created, found a niche audience but not enough to keep it on air, and died within 3 years. It experienced an amazing comeback from the dead and has proven durable enough to be spun off into all aforementioned creations.

Star Wars was a total surprise and became a MEGA sensation the likes of which film had never seen before and if I ran the world the OT would have been made and that would have been it and history could marvel how from 1977 to 1983 an epic that has few equals dominated pop culture.

Of course Lucas couldn't leave well enough and......you know the rest. Our society can't ever let something great just be, gotta milk it for more money. Hell they even wrote a sequel to "Gone With the Wind" in the 90's.

Back in the 40's it was filmed, it was a huge hit, it changed the film industry and it was left alone to bask in immortality for all eternity. They didn't start drafting "Return of the Wind" after it broke all box office records and, so far, no one has been stupid to try and remake or "reboot" it.

That should have been the Star Wars Triology.

And I also can't stand how it's been simplified by so many that "Star Wars was more action and effects where Star Trek was more thought provoking and cerebral" The Empire Strikes Back had moments that were every bit as emotional and deep as anything Star Trek did. Likewise things like Nemesis and the reboots have had just as many space battles and other action sequence as did Star Wars......to that's just a dumb stance to take IMHO.

Star Trek may not have ever had the "HOLY SHIT!!!!!" moments Star Wars did with the public but it has proven to be more flexible to expanding itself, where Star Wars has not and I don't believe it will do so in a good way in any future films.

The ONE thing Star Wars did that put far ahead of Star Trek in the public's mind was the MERCHANDISING!!!!! Say what you want about George Lucas but his act of keeping the merchandising rights is one of the most brilliant moves in film or business history and he absolutely killed it.

Star Trek had a head start in this area but the never moved on it. There were a few things here and there, but you could never find toys of the Enterprise and other ships or action figures or sets in the quantity and quality if Star Wars in the 70's and 80's and early 90's. And by the time they did start to release these things it was impossible to match Star Wars.

I mean TO THIS DAY you can't find a decent sized replica (or toy) of the Refit Enterprise or the Reliant....Something I would have bought in a heartbeat as a kid had they released ones of similarity quality to Star Wars ships. They've made the smaller ones which are nice, but if you want say a 1/400 scale then you'd better be a great model builder or pay a shitload for someone to do it, because that's the only way you're ever going to get one.

Star Trek failed MISERABLY in the merchandising department and Star Wars jumped on it and crushed it. That to me is the difference in popularity for a lot of people. I wouldn't call that propaganda I would call it a brilliant move on Lucas' part and a major screw up by Paramount.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Sorry for the double post. Those who say "Well Star Trek has done a lot more merchandising in the last decade" You're correct.

The problem though is they didn't do it when many of its fan were kids.

When they release a newer, but similar, version of the Millennium Falcon or AT-AT toy a lot of adults see it while walking through Target and think "I'll be damned, I remember how great those toys were as a kid and nostalga takes hold and they buy it."

Or, if you're like me you see the toy and think "Man I'd like to share that with my young son as a bonding thing" and you buy it.

Either way you pay money because of something Star Wars did over 35 years ago.

Some of the current Star Trek things are cool but I never played with them as a kid because either they didn't exist or were so hard to find. I have memories of having one Kirk figure from TMP growing up, I can't count how many Star Wars toy memories I have.

And like I said if they'd released a decent Enterprise and Reliant, or a bridge playset after TWOK then BAM I would have been all over that. It never happened though so I have no longing to capture that part of my past.

Nostalgia is a powerful tool, especially when manifested in a physical object that you have the opportunity, decades later, to have again.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Star Wars is like Bud Light and Star Trek is like craft beer. There will always be more Star Wars fans for the same reason there will always be more Bud Light drinkers.

 

[Maurice]

Most people who like Star Wars are not fans of the kind who would know any of this "depth" stuff mentioned upthread. Star Wars is more popular because it's more popular. It reaches a broader audience.