the phoenix at warp

[Johnny7oak]

so it could be the phoenix needed no inertial dampers/structural integrity field because the warp field was initiated sending him a relative zone or bubble in space known as subspace. Starting and stopping would be when you turn into a pancake if you do not some how otherwise keep the field going and slow the bubble to a hault inlimbo of subspace. Not really sure, but I was under the impression that the deflector dish of the Enterprise handed this typically. Stress on the hull of the ship near singularities and space hazards might not have been on the travel plan anyways. I would imagine with no gravity generator aboard a ship in subspace would be a inert environment to which only the gravity the vessel had upon itself would dictate the forces onboard... so free-float environment inside the phoenix at warp... slow the ship in subspace then turn off the field once at the destination.

 

[Timo]

I don't see a reason to think the ship wouldn't have had inertial dampers, though. Those were probably invented in the 1980s already, and Khan's getaway vessel had both those and full onboard gravity, plus assorted other goodies today's engineers can only dream of.

Warp might be an outgrowth of the mastery of gravity, or then an independent phenomenon and discovery. But Earth couldn't have had the spaceflight capabilities it demonstrated in the 20th and early 21st centuries without defeating Newton's Laws and the rocket equation somehow, and control of gravity would seem the best way to go, considering the deck gravity we see so clearly on the Botany Bay. Cochrane could have had deck gravity, too, or then just its flip side, protection from acceleration.

Doesn't mean warp would involve onboard acceleration, of course. I mean, we never got evidence that it would.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

I doubt that the Pheonix had inertial dampeners or artificial gravity..
The way warp "works" supposidly.. is that the warp drive creates a bubble of space time around the object, and then that bubble gets pushed, pulled faster than light. Inside the bubble, the craft undergoes Zero accelleration, basically, its stoped. In the case of the phoeix, it achived a stable orbit with a standard rocket, then activated its warp drive.
You probably take in whatever speed you are going into the bubble, and at the end of the warp he just turns around like any apollo capsule.
Inertial dampaners and artificial gravity is used with the impulse drive when they acclerate from 0 to .5 lightspeed in a few seconds.. which is probably like 5000 G's! you'd be paint on the far wall if you didn't have those. ( for a good read, Honor Harrington book series, in there, there going at 300 G's .. and in some of the battle scenes, the Gravity takes a hit, and there crew is strawberry jelly in a pico second.. )

 

[Timo]

Well, it's not a "standard rocket" that launches the test rig, either. Something packed in the space of the lower stage of a Titan II lookalike missile takes something the size of said missile's upper stage to a trajectory that the combined two stages of a real Titan II would be unable to attain - without breaking any bottles in a shed located right next to the launch silo. Cochrane would probably need gravity control tech at that stage of the flight already.

Why would he leave that tech ashore? We know it exists in the 1990s of Trek already... USAF would have been highly motivated to install it in their "Titan V" or whatever, and Cochrane wouldn't be particularly motivated to rip it out.

As for impulse accelerations, we don't actually hear of specific figures there. We may learn that "1/4 impulse" is commanded, we may learn the acceleration takes 2 seconds of story time; and we may learn that the eventual velocity reached is 20,000 km/s. but we never learn any two of those things at the same time, let alone three... But yeah, acceleration in the thousand-gee ballpark would be preferable for matching, say, the visuals of Earth departure in ST:TMP.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanGussin]

My take is this -

Starships use a controlled folding of the spacetime fabric in order to achieve speeds not reachable under normal conditions. If you listen to the systems checklist in TMP and TWOK you hear "space matrix restoration coils " and "flux chillers" mentioned. This implies that he greater the energy produced by the warp drive, specifically the warp coils , the steeper the fold of spacetime and the faster the ship can move. It also implies that the warp drive returns spacetime to its original state once the ship had passed thru that particular section of the fold. I suspect that ion and warp trails are caused by this restoration not being perfect but leaving a wake along the path of travel.

Modern quantum physics allows for many dimensions that we cant sense but do interact with. The Dimension that allows for a stable fold is called subspace and acts like a brace for the warp to rest on. This is also the dimension that allows for subspace radio to function by sending a coherent signal thru this section of spacetime.

The Phoenix was at a relatively low speed in realspace so while it was affected by G forces the physical stress on the ship and crew remained at a tolerable level.

Once the warp drive cut in the ship merely traveled along folded space until it dropped out of warp and back into realspace at a relatively low velocity that would, again, not require dampers to deal with.

 

[uniderth]

Count me in with the no inertial dampers needed for warp flight crowd. Because they are not moving, space-time is. Also count me in for the no deflector dish for warp flight crowd. If space-time is moving and they aren't then no micro-meteors will ever hit the ship. Additionally count me in with the no Bussard collectors crowd. They didn't come around until the Enterprise-C era. The round domes on the Phoneix's nacelles were reaction chambers.

I don't see a reason to think the ship wouldn't have had inertial dampers, though. Those were probably invented in the 1980s already, and Khan's getaway vessel had both those and full onboard gravity, plus assorted other goodies today's engineers can only dream of.

Warp might be an outgrowth of the mastery of gravity, or then an independent phenomenon and discovery. But Earth couldn't have had the spaceflight capabilities it demonstrated in the 20th and early 21st centuries without defeating Newton's Laws and the rocket equation somehow, and control of gravity would seem the best way to go, considering the deck gravity we see so clearly on the Botany Bay. Cochrane could have had deck gravity, too, or then just its flip side, protection from acceleration.

Doesn't mean warp would involve onboard acceleration, of course. I mean, we never got evidence that it would.

Timo Saloniemi

We do see gravity on the Botany Bay but we don't need to assume that it was technology on the ship itself. We could just as easily assume that the Enterprise somehow remotely generated gravity there. Or my favorite interpretation, they grabbed it with a temporary tractor beam and started accelerating at 9.8m/s2.

When Scotty reads off the system that are coming online he mentions heat, and oxygen atmosphere. It's never stated that gravity was coming online. The boarding party doesn't seem to be wearing magnetic boots so they seem to know for a certainty that there will be gravity on the Botany Bay. Why? Probably becasue they put it there.

Well, it's not a "standard rocket" that launches the test rig, either. Something packed in the space of the lower stage of a Titan II lookalike missile takes something the size of said missile's upper stage to a trajectory that the combined two stages of a real Titan II would be unable to attain

We don't know what the mass of the Phoenix is, so we don't know the altitude that the Phoenix was launched to. But we don't need to assume that it launch the Phoenix into orbit. The Phoenix could have been launched on a parabolic trajectory then activated its warp drive to get it further away from the earth. From there it would just need a tiny thrust from its main engine to put it into a highly elliptical orbit.

That way Cochrane and co. could reenter in the cockpit model and the warp test platform could remain in orbit for later reuse in testing.

- without breaking any bottles in a shed located right next to the launch silo.

Yes, but this entire sequence is plagued with problems so we have to assume some artistic license. The length of time that Magic Carpet Ride was playing doesn't allow time for them to reach the altitude we see in the external shots.

The shadow on the earth is wrong. We know the launch had to take place after 11 AM and before 11:15 AM; yet based on the shots of the earth its more like 6PM in Montana.

And as you pointed out the camp making it out unscathed from the nearness of the launch.

So if we are going to take this shot at face value we have to assume that the Phoenix not only had gravity control(then why have a rocket in the first place) but also time control. That way the first stage separation actually occurred at 6PM the previous day while the warp flight happened at 11 AM.