The Pegasus vs. Lower Decks

[Makarov]

I mentioned this in the "things I didn't get" thread in general discussion but I thought there might be some more opinions about it.

Why do you think Picard has an issue with the Pegasus project but has no problem sending spies into Cardassian territory in Lower Decks?

It seems to me that he had a moral issue with breaking the treaty with the romulans, but surely dealing with spies is breaking whatever treaty they have with the Cardassians.

Also does anyone else think he was a little bit hasty in revealing the Pegasus project? This is one situation where I feel like the moral thing to do is a very tactically bad idea. They could have declared war on the federation right there after hearing about it.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Espionage has been around throughout ALL of history. I'm pretty sure whatever the losing side signed at Versailles or on the deck of the USS Missouri didn't preclude eventually sending spies out to other nations.

A phase cloak however is essentially a component allowing mass destruction that would almost certainly enable it in the hands of people like Pressman, while ALSO being in violation of a public treaty. Different issues IMO.

Mark

 

[Mojochi]

They really are separate issues, and also two completely different political conditions as well, Cardassians vs. Romulans. No doubt Starfleet treats relations with those two empires in very dissimilar ways

Speaking to the Pegasus, I've commented at length about my thoughts on that in other threads, & essentially, Picard has a very small window through which he can blow that particular whistle & set things right.

One way of looking at it is that he is endangering relations with Romulus by exposing the scheme, which may very well be true, but at the same time, it is not specifically an act of war on their part, just a breach of treaty, (Getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar, as opposed to actually being caught red handed in the act of using it against Romulus) & this particular treaty is not designed specifically to assuage war. It's designed to bolster peace. It's a "Moral high ground" political tactic that Starfleet entered into, by refusing to take the bate of an arms race, that might openly demonstrate hostilities. It's a turn the other cheek gambit.

That they got busted was a black eye for sure, but it was a small risk that the other ship would engage in violence, right then when they confess it. Now, had there been other Romulan ships in the sector, outnumbering the Ent-D, I imagine the scenario going much differently, but one commander on one warbird is probably not going to unilaterally decide to take everybody to war. (Unless maybe it's Tomolak, who has a grudge) It's a gamble, but a necessary one

My way of looking at Picard's choice in The Pegasus is... Hey! wtf else was he supposed to do? He had to use it to save their hides. So everybody on board is now complicit. None of them were supposed to know about it & they now do.

His only other option is to sneak out of the sector cloaked, leaving Pressman to freely cover up the whole thing & leave the Romulans to believe they had died in there, OR leave them to discover that they hadn't (Which let's face it, blows the lid off the whole thing anyway). If you were going to do that smartly, then you'd have to set the autodestruct on the Pegasus & destroy the whole thing. Plus, now you have to keep the secret that the Enterprise was lost, which means mothballing it, & sequestering the crew.

Basically, if Picard doesn't blow the whistle right then, everybody on board is finished. It isn't just the treaty violation Picard is exposing in that episode. It's the secrecy. The secrecy had to end. The jig was up

 

[EnriqueH]

I coincidentally just finished watching Lower Decks, and thought it was a good episode.

My only reservation was that Picard would send such a young, green officer on such an obviously hazardous mission. She seems recently trained in Ops and Tactical and already she's on a highly dangerous, super sensitive secret mission with enormous political ramifications?

Isn't that like sending a 17-year old trainee to do a marine's job? Or something like that?

I thought she was treated like an expendable.

I would've thought there was a moral question there that wasn't addressed.

 

[tafkats]

She was a commissioned officer like any other, and possibly the only one on the Enterprise capable of the mission (depending on whether there were any other Bajorans on board at the time).

 

[EnriqueH]

She was a commissioned officer, but was it clear that she had the qualifications for that particular mission?

She was stationed at tactical and Worf was her mentor, so maybe that's what they were driving at, but I'm not sure her qualifications were clear. Outside of being Bajoran.

 

[Mojochi]

Frankly, with all the cosmetic surgery they usually undergo. Having an actual Bajoran for this mission doesn't seem all that necessary

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think the TNG and DS9 writers were comparing notes about whether they were currently at war with the Cardassians at that point.

 

[Ithekro]

While you can make someone look like a Bajoran, it is harder for them to act like a Bajoran. If you happen to have one, might as well see if she will do the mission.

 

[Orphalesion]

Might it be a just a difference in power between the Romulans and the Cardassians? Breaking the ban on cloaking technology would piss off both the Romulans and the Klingons, potentially destabilizing the whole quadrant.
The Cardassians? They seem to be more or less insignificant to the balance of power in the Federation's corner of the Galaxy.

 

[EnriqueH]

While you can make someone look like a Bajoran, it is harder for them to act like a Bajoran. If you happen to have one, might as well see if she will do the mission.

Yeah, but they surgically altered Worf only an episode back. And Worf doesn't act anything like the race his brother was trying to protect.

And that was an even more sensitive situation because it involved the Prime Directive.

 

[Ithekro]

At that point they no longer had a choice.

When one is going to deal with a native species that is pre-warp you do what you can, it is just one planet and quick likely just a small community being dealt with. They can't harm the Federation in the short term if one fails, even with the Prime Directive.

When one is dealing with an interstellar power that can and has gone to war with the Federation, you try even harder, as there are billions to trillions of lives that could potenally be lost across the quadrant.

 

[Tosk]

She was a commissioned officer, but was it clear that she had the qualifications for that particular mission?

She was stationed at tactical and Worf was her mentor, so maybe that's what they were driving at, but I'm not sure her qualifications were clear. Outside of being Bajoran.

What qualifications did she need for the mission? Her only role was to pose as a prisoner so that the Cardassian could get across the border.

 

[Shawnster]

Nice avatar, Tosk

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Seska was explicitly stated to have avoided any kind of medical scans, presumably a medical scan would make it obvious she wasn't really Bajoran. The captive would have had close enough scrutiny to be able to tell she wasn't Bajoran.

In The Pegasus, Picard was under the apprehension that the treaty single-handedly prevented a war for 75 years and thus there was a moral necessity to follow it in good faith and not only retain your principles but also cut the risk of igniting a war if you are found out.

In Lower Decks there was a tense political situation where they knew the Cardassians were plotting secret military buildups and possibly making a play to retake Bajor (Which they had attempted to do by funding The Circle).

 

[Mojochi]

Might it be a just a difference in power between the Romulans and the Cardassians? Breaking the ban on cloaking technology would piss off both the Romulans and the Klingons, potentially destabilizing the whole quadrant.

That's always been my take on it. The treaty exists so that Starfleet can maintain it's image. The image of governmental body that espouses itself as being purely exploratory & scientific in nature is damaged by taking the warlike posture of an arms race, especially one so obvious as stealth tech. You risk losing those allies, like Vulcans & Klingons if ever the Romulans do attack, because you will be seen as having been an equal instigator, and that's why it's kept the peace, because Starfleet campaigns on transparency. If Romulus attacked them, it would be cause for all Starfleet's allies to support them, which is something the Romulans would not want, which is why they instead try to undermine Starfleet's relations with its allies

You don't really need cloaking devises anyway, if you have friends with cloaking devises, as is evidenced in The Defector


No such superpower political chess game exists with Cardassia. They sneak off and try to pull a stunt, & everyone with a vested interest just has to constantly be on top of monitoring them, & keeping the fist poised in their face, just to let them know it won't fly

 

[EnriqueH]

She was a commissioned officer, but was it clear that she had the qualifications for that particular mission?

She was stationed at tactical and Worf was her mentor, so maybe that's what they were driving at, but I'm not sure her qualifications were clear. Outside of being Bajoran.

What qualifications did she need for the mission? Her only role was to pose as a prisoner so that the Cardassian could get across the border.

Isn't that called "espionage"?

Last time I checked, you need some experience for that kind of gig?

 

[Tosk]

Isn't that called "espionage"?

No. She wasn't a spy, or engaged to be one. She was simply a prop for Joret to use to help his border crossing. Then she was to be returned to the Enterprise via escape pod.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Espionage has been around throughout ALL of history. I'm pretty sure whatever the losing side signed at Versailles or on the deck of the USS Missouri didn't preclude eventually sending spies out to other nations.

A phase cloak however is essentially a component allowing mass destruction that would almost certainly enable it in the hands of people like Pressman, while ALSO being in violation of a public treaty. Different issues IMO.

Mark

Exactly.

Pretty much every organized government that has ever existed has used spies at some point. That isn't an indication of malicious intent, it's an indication of reality. A certain level of espionage is acceptable and accepted. Everybody knows that everybody does it. And I don't mean 'black ops' organizations like Section 31 (which I despise), I mean normal, acceptable, accountable organizations, such as Starfleet Intelligence, for example.

The phased cloak, however, is unproven and dangerous and highly volatile. Not only is it a possible WMD, but it's uniquely deadly.

 

[Sci]

Governments do not usually make treaties promising not to spy on one-another. If they were to do this, obviously sending spies into a foreign state would be a violation of international law -- but governments do not make this promise to one-another, because they inevitably know they will break it.

That's why espionage is not illegal. Well, not exactly -- most states make it illegal for someone to commit espionage against them, but not for them to commit espionage against other states.

Thus, for instance, if an officer of the KGB were to be caught spying on the U.K. on U.K. soil in 1973, his actions are illegal under British law, but not under Soviet law. And vice versa.

This is also why, when spies are caught, they are usually simply sent back to their home country and swapped out for captured spies caught in the other country.