The Pegasus: The Riker RetCon

[Mojochi]

I think @dupersuper was confused by the use of sibling instead of offspring, the former reserved, to my knowledge, for brothers/sisters, children of same parents etc...

True, I always felt Picard was meant to be a significantly older man than Patrick Stewart himself.

I think he is. Picard was 74 in Nemesis. Stewart was 62 circa 2002

 

[Timo]

I think @dupersuper was confused by the use of sibling instead of offspring, the former reserved, to my knowledge, for brothers/sisters, children of same parents etc...

Oops, pretend as I may, I'll never pass for a native. Sorry.

(Any room for mystery siblings in the family tree? We know Jean-Luc is the last Picard now that Robert and Rene died, but is there room for sisters? Even if sterile ones?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Charles Phipps]

I still hold Wesley is Picard's kid, no matter how unlikely.

 

[JR TREK]

He served as Picard's XO on 2 different Enterprises from 2364 to 2379, before getting the Titan. That's more like 16 years, from age 29 to 45. In 2364, he turned down the Drake (A light cruiser, like the Saber-class or Voyager's Intrepid-class). In 2365, he turned down the Renaissance-Class Aries, & then in 2366 he's offered the Excelsior-class Melbourne, which is a seriously incredible, albeit older model ship than the Galaxy.

Those are great points. How long was Riker on the D? I have to admit I don't even know how much in-universe time TNG covered.

Do we know what class the Drake was? Given the ships we see in use at the beginning of TNG, I think it would more likely be a Miranda variant than anything on the level of a Saber or Intrepid.

As far as I can tell, the closest thing to a canon version of the Renaissance class is a comic book illustration that shows a TOS Constitution saucer on an intrepid engineering hull, with mini-Galaxy class style warp nacelles -

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Renaissance_class?file=USS_Hornet_%28NCC-45231%29.jpg

Picard also calls it an insignificant ship, which also implies the Drake wasn't any better. Although perhaps Riker was being punished for not taking the Drake, and was offered a lesser ship. Or Star Fleet is putting him where they need his talents, and his qualities as an officer have nothing to do with the type of ship he gets to command. That seems a little ridiculous though, given that we typically see Star Fleet captains sit in command of one ship for long periods of time. I'd assume the Drake was a lower class than the Aries.

The Excelsior class is two generations out of date by 2366. It sounds like a better ship than the others Riker was offered, but the Luna class is a generation ahead of the Galaxy class. But, given that Riker passed up nearly 3 five year missions as Captain to continue serving as Picard's XO, maybe he could have worked his way up to the Luna class in that time.

 

[danellis]

OTOH, we never got a good look at Picard's past, until "Tapestry", ... Us not knowing about certain specific nine years is not surprising, and we don't need to make much of it: Picard could have commanded three other ships during that time, or taught at the Academy, or sat in a Tellarite prison, and it would take a specific episode for us to learn of these facts.

Timo Saloniemi

Coincidentally, I was my rewatch came up to "Legacy" this evening, with Tasha's sister. Picard tells the story of how he first met Yar. " The first time I saw Tasha Yar, she was making her way through a Carnelian mine field to reach a wounded colonist. Her ship had responded to their distress call, as had mine. When it was all over, I requested that she be assigned to the Enterprise. Her ship's captain owed me a favour. "

This implies that Picard was serving on a ship (I assume as commanding officer, but that's not certain from this) either shortly, or very shortly, before taking command of the Enterprise.

dJE

 

[JR TREK]

What was Janeway's command history?

 

[Mojochi]

(Any room for mystery siblings in the family tree? We know Jean-Luc is the last Picard now that Robert and Rene died, but is there room for sisters? Even if sterile ones?)

I... don't think so? But there is a chance he might still have a sister-in-law? Marie? He only says Rene & Robert died in the fire. As sad for her as it might be to lose both, she might not have perished with them.

Those are great points. How long was Riker on the D? I have to admit I don't even know how much in-universe time TNG covered.

The entire time, from the Farpoint maiden voyage, to His leaving for the Titan, 2364 to 2379

Do we know what class the Drake was? Given the ships we see in use at the beginning of TNG, I think it would more likely be a Miranda variant than anything on the level of a Saber or Intrepid.

Not that I know of. Your info seems as informed as anything I've ever heard

Picard also calls it an insignificant ship, which also implies the Drake wasn't any better. Although perhaps Riker was being punished for not taking the Drake, and was offered a lesser ship. Or Star Fleet is putting him where they need his talents, and his qualities as an officer have nothing to do with the type of ship he gets to command. That seems a little ridiculous though, given that we typically see Star Fleet captains sit in command of one ship for long periods of time. I'd assume the Drake was a lower class than the Aries.

There's also the possibility that his offerings were primarily presented by way of availabilities. Not every captain seat is a sought after maeuver like Picard & the Enterprise. Sometimes, there's just openings. That could mean the Drake needn't be a lesser ship than the Aries. It was just one that had the top spot open at the time, & in those days, his name was at the top of some lists for any availability

The Excelsior class is two generations out of date by 2366. It sounds like a better ship than the others Riker was offered, but the Luna class is a generation ahead of the Galaxy class. But, given that Riker passed up nearly 3 five year missions as Captain to continue serving as Picard's XO, maybe he could have worked his way up to the Luna class in that time.

The Melbourne was probably the only one we can verifiably say he was smart/lucky not to take, for 2 reasons. #1, it went down at Wolf 359, & I doubt him being the captain would've saved it from that fate, because the only reason the Enterprise was even able to pull off that victory was because Data was on board that ship, & could hack the collective. #2, if Riker had moved to the Melbourne, the Enterprise chain of command would've been altered. Either Shelby or Data would've been #1, & captain after Picard's abduction, & I'm apt to not give Riker more credit than anybody else for that victory, but I will admit he was no small part of it. The choice to return for Picard was his. Without him, the dynamic might've been too different & the whole turn of events might have gone the other way.

It's also possible that "Insignificant ship" was in context to the Enterprise being the prestigious flagship. It doesn't have to mean inconsequential in design. The Aries was slated for deep space legit Star Trekking. It wouldn't necessarily be a nothing vessel. I like to believe they were offering him Voyager type gigs. "Get out there & boldly go do the good work of Starfleet" etc... but he instead wanted to be on a legendary vessel

 

[Rusty0918]

In the "Star Trek Chronology," at least in the early edition I have, it mentioned the Aries as a small scout ship. That being said, there have been many suggestions on its class (the Renaissance-class). One common design is a variation of the Ambassador with side-by-side nacelles (tacky), some speculated it might be the same type as the Centaur as seen in DS9's "A Time to Stand." In one fanfic I wrote, the Renaissance-class was DJ Curtis's Victory-class Vimy Ridge design.

 

[Dukhat]

In the "Star Trek Chronology," at least in the early edition I have, it mentioned the Aries as a small scout ship. That being said, there have been many suggestions on its class (the Renaissance-class). One common design is a variation of the Ambassador with side-by-side nacelles (tacky), some speculated it might be the same type as the Centaur as seen in DS9's "A Time to Stand." In one fanfic I wrote, the Renaissance-class was DJ Curtis's Victory-class Vimy Ridge design.

The only on-screen description that the Aries was given was by Picard, when he states that it is an 'insignificant ship' (the context being that it's insignificant in comparison to the Enterprise-D, which applies to pretty much any ship.) I always felt that a good candidate for its design (and the Renaissance class in general) was the Probert Ambassador design.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think it was canon that Starfleet had started to basically ignore Riker after he turned down his second promotion.

 

[Crewman6]

Eh, it's up to fans to make things like this consistent.

Bashir after the revelation is so much better a character than before.

Same as Odo the Founder.

You roll with it.

Those are two WILDLY different scenarios. The reveal about Odo was terrific. The reveal about Bashir was complete crap. It (nearly) ruined the character before they decided to downplay it and it absolutely, 100% does not track with everything we knew about Bashir up until that point. AT ALLLLLLLLL......

(Even Siddig hated it and admitted he tried to tank his line readings when they gave him all that techno gobble-dee-gook in the beginning of Season 6 in the hopes they wouldn't do it again.)

 

[Charles Phipps]

Those are two WILDLY different scenarios. The reveal about Odo was terrific. The reveal about Bashir was complete crap. It (nearly) ruined the character before they decided to downplay it and it absolutely, 100% does not track with everything we knew about Bashir up until that point. AT ALLLLLLLLL......

(Even Siddig hated it and admitted he tried to tank his line readings when they gave him all that techno gobble-dee-gook in the beginning of Season 6 in the hopes they wouldn't do it again.)

Yeah, your opinion is wrong to me because Bashir being genetically augmented gave him a lot of great stories that he didn't have well before as well as helped tie DS9 to greater Trek history. I also loved how being a superhuman attracted the whole S31 group to him that also gave some really good spy stories.

Because Pre-Augment Bashir was just a snotty jerkass who was really good at tennis who, nevertheless, fled to butt end of the Federation for inexplicable reasons. This gave us a reason.

 

[dupersuper]

I think it was canon that Starfleet had started to basically ignore Riker after he turned down his second promotion.

Ignore him how? Also, Icarus Factor was the second time he turned down a command, they weren't ignoring him enough to have not offered him a third by Best of Both Worlds. While they may have stopped asking afterwards, I'm sure the whole "saving us from the Borg" thing kept him firmly on their good side.

 

[JR TREK]

Quoting Memory Alpha -

"Later, when Riker consulted Picard, Picard put the Aries mission in perspective to the Enterprise mission, describing it as "a relatively insignificant ship, in an obscure corner of the galaxy. But it will be your ship."

To me, that phrase loses its impact if the Aries is insignificant compared to the Enterprise, but still a very nice ship to be in command of. It's better story telling if Riker is stepping down to the "small scout ship" Rusty0918 mentioned. I doubt Riker would have been on it for more than a mission or two though. I see it as more of a "Captain Jellico, one mission only" thing. Which is an argument against my original argument, but that's o.k.

About Bashir, I have to agree that he was more interesting as an augment, but still the least interesting of the Berman era doctors. Maybe the least interesting of all. He's sure not going to beat the cat doctor on Lower Decks.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Ignore him how? Also, Icarus Factor was the second time he turned down a command, they weren't ignoring him enough to have not offered him a third by Best of Both Worlds. While they may have stopped asking afterwards, I'm sure the whole "saving us from the Borg" thing kept him firmly on their good side.

A good retcon revision would be that it was not the Borg that where they stopped wanting to promote Riker but because they discovered his involvement in the Pegasus conspiracy. After that, he's a disgraced conspirator.

 

[Commander Troi]

He served as Picard's XO on 2 different Enterprises from 2364 to 2379, before getting the Titan. That's more like 16 years, from age 29 to 45. In 2364, he turned down the Drake (A light cruiser, like the Saber-class or Voyager's Intrepid-class). In 2365, he turned down the Renaissance-Class Aries, & then in 2366 he's offered the Excelsior-class Melbourne, which is a seriously incredible, albeit older model ship than the Galaxy.

I don't think a retcon is needed. Riker was a career Starfleet type who decided to put his captaincy off a year or two for the feather in his cap that being first officer of the flagship would be, but while there made close friends and "found himself" outside just being a Starfleet go-getter.

I'm with @dupersuper on this. IME, there's a big difference between being 29 and being 45. What most people want out of life changes quite a bit.

Even discounting that, I never had much trouble believing Riker would rather be "2nd fiddle" on the Enterprise, with all the prestige and excitement of that, than Captain of any other ship.

 

[Timo]

For all we know, Riker had pretty much nothing riding on his career, and could have quit any day - but having Picard as a father figure in place of the worthless original was important to him, and worth clinging onto.

Coincidentally, I was my rewatch came up to "Legacy" this evening, with Tasha's sister. Picard tells the story of how he first met Yar. "The first time I saw Tasha Yar, she was making her way through a Carnelian mine field to reach a wounded colonist. Her ship had responded to their distress call, as had mine. When it was all over, I requested that she be assigned to the Enterprise. Her ship's captain owed me a favour. "

This implies that Picard was serving on a ship (I assume as commanding officer, but that's not certain from this) either shortly, or very shortly, before taking command of the Enterprise.

Well, Picard had a ship of "his", and Yar had a ship of "hers". Semantically, since Tasha wasn't in command, Jean-Luc probably wouldn't have been, either.

Incidentally, these Carnelians are strange folks. They have colonists, and they have minefields, and they then make a distress call. "One of ours got wounded when laying a minefield - please help!" ?

Or are Carnelians some other folks, infamous for mining the backyards of random colonies of others when nobody is looking? Mines are a pretty odd choice for an offensive weapon used by an invader, or for a defensive one intended to prevent colonization by invaders.''

(Also, why dance on mines to reach the wounded? Why not beam over to them, or beam them out? In the latter case, it wouldn't even matter if beaming detonates the mines.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Iamnotspock]

We know Picard's first assignment was the Stargazer. We know he commanded that ship at Captain rank in the mid-2350s. But we have zero evidence on when he got that command, and we know he was off to other ships, including at least the Reliant, in between.

Do we? I thought Reliant predated the Stargazer.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard

 

[Orphalesion]

(Also, why dance on mines to reach the wounded? Why not beam over to them, or beam them out? In the latter case, it wouldn't even matter if beaming detonates the mines.)

The mines might have had a function that prevents beaming in proximity to them (as in makes it impossie from a technological stand point) We do know that several things can disrupt transporters.

In addition to that... Do we know the mine "field" and colonist were on a planet ?
For all we know Tasha navigated a shuttle through a minefield (mine bubble really) in space to rescue that wounded colonist from an escape pod. The colony ship might have entered the Carnelian minefield by accident.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, your opinion is wrong to me because Bashir being genetically augmented gave him a lot of great stories that he didn't have well before as well as helped tie DS9 to greater Trek history. I also loved how being a superhuman attracted the whole S31 group to him that also gave some really good spy stories.

Because Pre-Augment Bashir was just a snotty jerkass who was really good at tennis who, nevertheless, fled to butt end of the Federation for inexplicable reasons. This gave us a reason.

Same. Bashir remains one of my favorite characters and doctors in the Berman era because he is so conflicted. If he had stayed like early Bashir I doubt I would be so interested.

On topic, I think The Pegasus is a nice layer to Riker.