The Pegasus: The Riker RetCon

[Qonundrum]

We weren't talking about TNG, we were talking about DS9, which ran from 1993 - 1999, comparing it to shows like Northern Exposure (1990 - 1995), Mad About You (1992 - 1999 [not counting the revival season]) and Friends (1994 - 2004), which would certainly be contemporary.

And "The Golden Girls" (1985-92) which had a same sex episode in season 6 (1991) and had an out character a couple years earlier (Clayton Hollingsworth). Portrayed by Monte Markham, guess which DS9 he guest starred in and as quite a different character too?

"Married with Children", in season 5, had an episode around gay marriage - played by Dan Castellaneta of Homer Simpson fame - and, as with Clayton Hollingsworth, the writers didn't use lame caricaturing* but instead crafted an actual person with some depth -- ditto for the episode when Marcy's cousin visits in season 11. IMHO, those characters I could relate to far more than Captain Jack or many non-hetero people scripted today; it's sad when sitcom characters have more depth and gravitas to them and that's a testament to the scripting and acting. Even "All in the Family"'s first gay character from 1971 (a mid-season replacement show that was given a disclaimer...) was as truly a gutsy move as it was going against a stereotype.

And, usually, if a character isn't gay or straight or shown to be one way or another, or even if mildly hinted at, it's enough for many people to go "Okay, that's a cool character trait and might be important in the show to know, so what else is this character about?" Just as with the straight characters.

* IMHO, that level was used in "Soap", a sitcom from the late-1970s... but in that show, everybody in it was more or less a caricature to begin with.

The sad part is, I've never watched Star Trek for shipping. Most of the time I've laughed at the screen when Kirk runs around teaching "luuuuuuuuuuurve" to the lady of the week as well. It's unintentionally hilarious and if the show didn't have other things going for it, I wouldn't have kept watching. Anyone watching Kirk because he's hetero just seems as silly to me as watching only shows with gay people just because they're gay. YMMV, my ex fiancee only wanted to watch shows revolving around gays because he needed fictional tv shows to validate one aspect of his existence, as if no others had. That and lots of booze and the truest acts of abuse. But plenty of shows exist for everyone and plenty of shows offer more than just one thing - fortunately!

 

[Qonundrum]

Ro and Barclay are forward looking to shows like Deep Space 9, as characters who don't quite fit in and are occasionally in conflict with their comrades, but are valued members of the crew regardless.

^^this, x10,000

And arguably for Tilly in DSC as well. I've not been the most avid viewer of the show, but having seen enough clips and with enough context, it's safe to say I resemble that "the power of math!" line more than you'd believe, too. Maybe that's what I like about these shows - outsider and oddball characters. Even Bashir was an outsider in his own way, and not just because of the genetically engineered partial-retcon. These are the characters that just seem the most interesting, because they're trapezoid pegs dealing with square holes...

You know, apart from it comedically devolving into sexy time, Their dynamic is one of the reasons I kind of like that episode, despite a less than well thought out premise behind it.

They do a good job of showing that once the ranks are gone, & the personal prejudices against one another, & even their own life baggage, they are at their core two people capable of cooperation with one another just fine. The Picard/Worf dynamic was interesting for the same reason. I like to believe that ordeal was eye opening for them all, & strengthened their work dynamic

It at least gives a little context for why in Pre-emptive Strike everybody is all chummy to see Ro back, even though there's rarely ever been good relations

^^this also, x10,000

 

[Oddish]

It's actually possible to simultaneously ship and non-ship a couple. I love the Janeway/Chakotay chemistry, but an actual romance between them would be a choo choo smashy smashy of the first order. Well, second order maybe. But pretty bad.

 

[dupersuper]

And "The Golden Girls" (1985-92) which had a same sex episode in season 6 (1991) and had an out character a couple years earlier (Clayton Hollingsworth). Portrayed by Monte Markham, guess which DS9 he guest starred in and as quite a different character too?

"Married with Children", in season 5, had an episode around gay marriage - played by Dan Castellaneta of Homer Simpson fame - and, as with Clayton Hollingsworth, the writers didn't use lame caricaturing* but instead crafted an actual person with some depth -- ditto for the episode when Marcy's cousin visits in season 11. IMHO, those characters I could relate to far more than Captain Jack or many non-hetero people scripted today; it's sad when sitcom characters have more depth and gravitas to them and that's a testament to the scripting and acting. Even "All in the Family"'s first gay character from 1971 (a mid-season replacement show that was given a disclaimer...) was as truly a gutsy move as it was going against a stereotype.

And, usually, if a character isn't gay or straight or shown to be one way or another, or even if mildly hinted at, it's enough for many people to go "Okay, that's a cool character trait and might be important in the show to know, so what else is this character about?" Just as with the straight characters.

* IMHO, that level was used in "Soap", a sitcom from the late-1970s... but in that show, everybody in it was more or less a caricature to begin with.

The sad part is, I've never watched Star Trek for shipping. Most of the time I've laughed at the screen when Kirk runs around teaching "luuuuuuuuuuurve" to the lady of the week as well. It's unintentionally hilarious and if the show didn't have other things going for it, I wouldn't have kept watching. Anyone watching Kirk because he's hetero just seems as silly to me as watching only shows with gay people just because they're gay. YMMV, my ex fiancee only wanted to watch shows revolving around gays because he needed fictional tv shows to validate one aspect of his existence, as if no others had. That and lots of booze and the truest acts of abuse. But plenty of shows exist for everyone and plenty of shows offer more than just one thing - fortunately!

Well, if we're counting guest characters you have MASH, All in the Family, WKRP, Barney Miller, Night Court, Cheers, Frasier, West Wing, Twin Peaks...

 

[Oddish]

Sheesh. Escaping from this train of discussion seems to be like trying to escape from a black hole's gravity well.

 

[Mojochi]

I think in Ro's case, there just wasn't enough screen time, & the viewer has to fill in the blanks a bit to get where you find it believable that she's had a warming up with the crew by the time of Pre-Emptive Strike. I tend to like The Next Phase, & Conundrum, because they are rare instances where she makes some progress in closer relations with some of them, the kind that seem to be implied (a bit out of nowhere imho) in her Pre-Emptive Strike welcome home party

& believe it or not, I'm always a bit surprised how well Riker takes her betrayal in Pre-Emptive Strike. It belies that he's come to understand her better than those earlier days, & perhaps he's even had time to reflect on his own demons enough to take her betrayal of Starfleet somewhat in stride... better than he might have early on, & in fact, even better than Picard seemed to take it, (Granted, his was a more personal betrayal)

 

[Charles Phipps]

I mean we know Riker would join the Maquis if not for his current circumstances.

 

[Mojochi]

I mean we know Riker would join the Maquis if not for his current circumstances.

That's probably another later event that reshaped his prejudices, seeing a tale of two Rikers play out in real time, could give you some well earned perspective on just how nuanced & delicate your life, as you know it, is. One missed opportunity, & you could be all kinds of different

 

[Charles Phipps]

#PressmanWasRight

After all, the Romulans are constantly violating the treaty and engaged in hostile acts verging on acts of war against the Federation as we see in UNITY and the Klingon Civil War.

 

[Mojochi]

Pressman is only right if you don't mind destroying the trust everyone has in The Federation not being as underhanded as the Romulan Empire. Letting them drag you down to their level undermines the good faith others have in you. No one has good faith in Romulus. They only have fear. If the Federation starts playing by their rules, what they have built will be no better.

Cloaking tech is basically stealth tech, & the only point of it is surprise attacks & espionage, both of which are practices the UFP purports to condemn. The direct solution to combatting an enemy that's hiding from you is not to hide from them in return. It's to expose them... break down their guise. Developing your own hiding technological advantage is just an eye for an eye. It neither nullifies the problem, nor is it a sufficient deterrent. It's just an escalation in the wrong direction imho