The Pegasus: The Riker RetCon

[Oddish]

Well, consider that they decided that Data couldn't be a commander, despite...
* Excellent service record.
* Over 10 years as LCDR.
* Saving the Earth from the Borg in BoBW II.
* The fact that there were other commanders on board.

If the writers weren't going to give Data his much deserved third pip, you think they'd give Riker four?

 

[Timo]

Well, Riker is already almost dead of old age in the 2380s. Data might still be going strong in the 12380s.

Except of course he's dead now. So much for having plenty of time to enjoy the 2½ pips...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Yeah let's get back to topic (though it's not like it's the first time this thread ... *hint hint*)
I guess the writers had created a problem for themselves with a character who wanted to get his own command as quick as possible (itself a relic from Phase II where Will Decker was supposed to eventually replace Kirk iirc) and had to find a way to solve it.
And I suppose having him involved in the Pegasus incident is as good a way as any to achiever that. Though personally I would still have preferred Will going on to be a Starship Captain and being replaced on the Enterprise by Thomas Riker.

While I don't hate the idea for "fixing" Riker, it does potentially shift character dynamics for other characters as well, being a show where rank & post are almost inseparable from development

Case in point, does Data become #1? & if so does that not represent a monumental character alteration for him too? The role of #1 is basically featured as a captain in training, but Data already has a space on the show for that kind of development. He's featured as learning what it is to be human. Being now featured as learning what it is to be captain detracts from his primary design on the show

Does Troi's story now focus on being back with Riker? Does Geordi or Worf now have to become #2? Does that require a shift of post for them as well?

It's potentially a tailspin that leaves little left of the original dynamic

 

[Oddish]

Certainly it would have affected the dynamic of the show. My personal view is that regardless of what they did with Riker (there were IRL reasons for keeping him, most notably Jonathan Frakes's popularity), Data should have been a 3-pipper. Both Beverly and Pulaski were, Troi became one, and remember Nella Daren in "Lessons". If they could be commanders, so could the second officer of Starfleet's flagship.

Data didn't do anything as a LCDR that he couldn't have done as a commander.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

remember Nella Daren in "Lessons". If they could be commanders, so could the second officer of Starfleet's flagship.

Actually Daren was a LCDR, but that's somewhat irrelevant to the basic point that Data should have been promoted to CMDR at some point between 2364 and 2379. In fact, based on USN policy he was probably eligible by then (though his own dialogue from Datalore suggests season 2 or season 3 would have been appropriate.)

 

[Oddish]

I like start of S4 for it because of what he did. Riker and he were the ones most responsible for stopping the Borg at 001. Riker refused his just reward (his own command), but Data should have been rewarded properly too. Commander rank would have been only right.

 

[Tuskin38]

Riker is already almost dead of old age in the 2380s

...what?

He'd be 45 in 2380.

 

[matthunter]

...what?

He'd be 45 in 2380.

I assume he means compared to Data's potential lifespan. We're all mayflies, even the Vulcans. But Starfleet doesn't slow down Vulcan promotions either just because they live twice as long as humans.

 

[dupersuper]

By 20's standards, it wasn't all that brave. When we have a married same-sex couple in the cast of "Discovery", a mere kiss is nothing. Things were different in the '80's and '90's, especially with the adolescent and young male demographic Trek was targeting.

Northern Exposure had a same sex married couple in the 90s. Hell, so did Friends and Mad About You.

 

[Mojochi]

^ TNG predates all those shows. Thirtysomething was a soap type show on around the same time as TNG, & they wrote in an episode featuring a same sex relationship, that lost the show 1.5 million in advertising revenue from the controversy. That was the climate.

 

[Orphalesion]

^ TNG predates all those shows. Thirtysomething was a soap type show on around the same time as TNG, & they wrote in an episode featuring a same sex relationship, that lost the show 1.5 million in advertising revenue from the controversy. That was the climate.

I don't want to start that discussion up again, but fact is there were LGBT+ characters and themes in shows that were contemporary or older than TNG and TNG has no claim to being "ground breaking" or "brave"; not in the portrayal of Gender and Sex Minorities, not in the portrayal of racial minorities (As I've often said on here, if the show had been progressive in the portrayal of POC, either Picard or Riker would have been non-Caucasian)

 

[suarezguy]

Yes, it would have been brave. And Star Trek, as much as it sometimes gets a bit overpraised, was once legitimately brave in those areas. The fact that 90s Trek was not remotely groundbreaking in that regard is a god damn shame. It's cowardly and dishonors the franchise.

They could have just played it safe, like most everyone was doing, and that's basically what they did. Rejoined was only very, very, slightly "brave", even by the standards of the time.

Am I judging the show by "modern" standards? No. I'm judging it by 60s standards, by the standards Star Trek itself set.

'60s ST did have a black-white kiss but it was an involuntary one forced by mind control, not that much different or better from what can be put against "Rejoined".

 

[Oddish]

Why don't we either start up or resurrect a topic on whether Trek was groundbreaking or playing catch-up regarding LGBTQ representation? Then we can talk about the Bearded Wonder here.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't want to start that discussion up again, but fact is there were LGBT+ characters and themes in shows that were contemporary or older than TNG and TNG has no claim to being "ground breaking" or "brave"; not in the portrayal of Gender and Sex Minorities, not in the portrayal of racial minorities (As I've often said on here, if the show had been progressive in the portrayal of POC, either Picard or Riker would have been non-Caucasian)

None of which refutes my statement about the climate of the times, or TNG's order of broadcast compared to the above merntioned shows.

Neither was I espouing TNG as groundbreakingly progressive. I consider it slightly above par among the majority of its contemporaries, for those representations.

My only point was to merely dispell any notion that while it surely wasn't as progressive as we now wish it had been, it was by far not behind the curve. Whoopi Goldberg herself publically considered it progressive enough to join & be welcomed to it. Nevertheless still a product of a more oppressive time, & imho, doing as well or better than the vast majority, despite the onus of being set in a progressive future, making it more scrutinized for not being as much that way as it could be to modern sensibilities

I tend to support the show when it seems like it's being disparaged, & yes, I apologize that this time it strays way off topic

So I'll shut up about that now lol

 

[dupersuper]

^ TNG predates all those shows. Thirtysomething was a soap type show on around the same time as TNG, & they wrote in an episode featuring a same sex relationship, that lost the show 1.5 million in advertising revenue from the controversy. That was the climate.

We weren't talking about TNG, we were talking about DS9, which ran from 1993 - 1999, comparing it to shows like Northern Exposure (1990 - 1995), Mad About You (1992 - 1999 [not counting the revival season]) and Friends (1994 - 2004), which would certainly be contemporary.

 

[Farscape One]

Back to the Riker topic...

I read an interview with Ronald D. Moore, who wrote "The Pegasus", stating he wrote it basically because he got sick of fans at conventions asking 'why doesn't Starfleet use cloaking devices'.

He wrote a really great episode. I find it's the best of season 7 barring the finale. I also don't find it to be a retcon of Riker, simply an explanation of some of his decisions and actions since the series began. I know there is a fine line between the two, but I also consider Bashir's revelation to be an explanation. (Granted, one that might require a slight bit more thought.)

It explains the psychology of his father figure feelings with Picard. It can also explain his supremely quick promotions... which I don't think he knew Pressman had a hand in, but it is very possible he moved Riker to assignments where he would flourish faster. It also explains why he would be gun shy in taking a command.

(I also firmly believe it was this incident, more than anything, that stopped Riker from getting those command offers until the Titan.)

I can also see this as why he was so really hard on Ro Laren. Because he saw the same thing in her that he saw in him all those years ago... basically, what Worf told Data in "Second Chances" when Data was confused as to why the Rikers weren't getting along. (To be fair, Riker did follow his training and words about following orders and standing by your captain, while Ro disobeyed orders and got her away team killed. Almost the exact inverse of each, really.)

Is this episode an explanation of Will Riker, the character? Absolutely.

Is it a retcon? I say no, but since the lines between the two can be blurry, I can certainly see why many would say that.

 

[Mojochi]

^Great post!

I can also see this as why he was so really hard on Ro Laren. Because he saw the same thing in her that he saw in him all those years ago... basically, what Worf told Data in "Second Chances" when Data was confused as to why the Rikers weren't getting along. (To be fair, Riker did follow his training and words about following orders and standing by your captain, while Ro disobeyed orders and got her away team killed. Almost the exact inverse of each, really.)

And that's why it makes a LOT of sense why he'd never get right with her. He did everything right, everything he's supposed to do, & it got people killed, & he carries the guilt of that blind allegiance with him forever.

She did it all wrong, maybe never truly valuing the way it should've been done at all, to begin with, & THAT got people killed too, & yet, she's pretty blatant about expressing that she's not really or entirely to blame. It's a polar opposite.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And that's why it makes a LOT of sense why he'd never get right with her.

Apart from in Conundrum when he didn't know any of that stuff, so their interactions were controlled by their basic personalities... with predictable results.

 

[Mojochi]

Apart from in Conundrum when he didn't know any of that stuff, so their interactions were controlled by their basic personalities... with predictable results.

You know, apart from it comedically devolving into sexy time, Their dynamic is one of the reasons I kind of like that episode, despite a less than well thought out premise behind it.

They do a good job of showing that once the ranks are gone, & the personal prejudices against one another, & even their own life baggage, they are at their core two people capable of cooperation with one another just fine. The Picard/Worf dynamic was interesting for the same reason. I like to believe that ordeal was eye opening for them all, & strengthened their work dynamic

It at least gives a little context for why in Pre-emptive Strike everybody is all chummy to see Ro back, even though there's rarely ever been good relations

 

[Oddish]

It at least gives a little context for why in Pre-emptive Strike everybody is all chummy to see Ro back, even though there's rarely ever been good relations

Ro and Barclay are forward looking to shows like Deep Space 9, as characters who don't quite fit in and are occasionally in conflict with their comrades, but are valued members of the crew regardless.