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The passing of time..with whom do you agree?

TerokNor

Captain
Captain
I just recently watched "Distant voices" and was wondring, with whom do you agree more on the topic of aging...Bashir, who is scared and grumpy about it or Garak, who sees older age as something, that earns respect and who is not scared at growing old?

I personally agree more with Bashir...I hate how time is racing by so fast...there are still so many things I want to do, that one life just is not enough time for doing them all.


TerokNor
 
I turned 40 yesterday. That alone cured me of "feeling old".

Now I have firsthand knowledge of what bullshit that feeling is.
 
I think I've come towards the "Cardassian" attitude, myself...granted, I'm not "old" yet, but I truly believe age should be respected, not feared.
 
I suppose I don't think about it too much, since its a long way off yet, but I really don't want to get old, and I would really agree with Bashir here. I would like to spend as much time on Earth as possible before I die.
 
I'm 41 and am not bothered by ageing. You can't fight it, so you may as well go along for the ride and enjoy it.
 
Neither. I think people are way too obsessed with age, and I hate all sorts of ageism. I never understood the idea that we should respect the elderly, or people who are older than us, just because of their age. Why does that in itself warrant respect? What did they do that is so amazing and praiseworthy? They survived?:shrug: The idea of respecting older people is based on the assumption that they have more life experience, but that means nothing in itself, if the person hasn't learned anything from that experience. I've seen far too many examples that prove that older does not necessarily mean wiser. Some people are intelligent and learn from their experience and gain wisdom with age. Others are stupid when they are young and remain just as stupid when they get old, only they are even worse by that time because they become more set in their ways and incapable of change. So, age in itself doesn't mean a thing. Some older people are worthy of respect, others are not.

On the other hand, there is also that superficial, incredibly hypocritical cult of youth, which I have always despised. Where does that idea that the first gray hair and the first lines on one's face is a tragedy come from? (Funny thing, it's always relatively young people who are whining about feeling old - has media brainwashed everyone to that extent?) I call the cult of youth hypocritical, because we all know that all the power structures on Earth, the people who make decisions and control everything, are by and large middle-aged or elderly. They're the ones who are obsessed with youth, and they are the ones responsible for the cult of youth: politicians who take pictures with children, talk about what they will do for the future of our young people, and flaunt their young associates - usually ambitious sycophantic upstarts - in the public to show that their party is 'giving a chance to the young'; employers who hire young people only because they think they're easier to exploit; producers and executives who want to see (if not do more with) young faces and bodies on their film and TV screen; those who are targeting the (in)famous "coveted 18 to whatever demographics" by producing idiotic comedies, superficial teen soaps and what not. You'd think from the the media and the public that young people are the most privileged and adored part of the human race, when in fact, they're just valued for pretty and happy young faces and fresh young bodies that can be put on the screen, in a commercial, or in a catwalk, or on the sports ground, or used in a political campaign, or serve as a bit on the side, or get sent to war to fight and get killed... and they're in fact treated like children who don't get to have a say and aren't in control of anything. They're just supposed to be young and pretty and strong and happy and shut up and do as told. Then they're get older and either 1) do not become powerful, in which case they're likely to get screwed if they ever get in a situation to lose their job and need a new one at the age of 50, or 2) they become successful, powerful middle-aged people, and start thinking that their life is so difficult because of all that responsability they have, and start believing the myth of what a wonderful thing youth is, the time you're so carefree and can just have fun and not worry about anything... because they have by that time forgotten what it really is like and that it's absolutely not all that carefree or fun - or maybe it really was like that for them, so they never think that it's actually quite difficult or miserable for many other people.
/rant
 
Neither. I think people are way too obsessed with age, and I hate all sorts of ageism. I never understood the idea that we should respect the elderly, or people who are older than us, just because of their age. Why does that in itself warrant respect? What did they do that is so amazing and praiseworthy? They survived?:shrug: The idea of respecting older people is based on the assumption that they have more life experience, but that means nothing in itself, if the person hasn't learned anything from that experience. I've seen far too many examples that prove that older does not necessarily mean wiser. Some people are intelligent and learn from their experience and gain wisdom with age. Others are stupid when they are young and remain just as stupid when they get old, only they are even worse by that time because they become more set in their ways and incapable of change. So, age in itself doesn't mean a thing. Some older people are worthy of respect, others are not.


Ok, that hit close to home for me. I'm only young (20) and I lived with my girl friends family (her father) for about two years (I was 17-18), before moving out on our own, and I was so surprised at how little he had learnt from life. He's in his mid sixties and very angry about life.
Hard to live with someone like him. Her mother is no better, now she NEVER grew up. She exploits her children for personal gain.

Up until then I thought that age meant respect, maturity and wisdom. But after meeting him I could see just how wrong I was. I couldn't believe some of the outlooks he had on life, some of them quite disgusting. Living there really opened up the doors of life for me, I have since lost some respect for the hunman race..

I agree with you completely.
 
Neither. I think people are way too obsessed with age, and I hate all sorts of ageism. I never understood the idea that we should respect the elderly, or people who are older than us, just because of their age. Why does that in itself warrant respect? What did they do that is so amazing and praiseworthy? They survived?:shrug: The idea of respecting older people is based on the assumption that they have more life experience, but that means nothing in itself, if the person hasn't learned anything from that experience. I've seen far too many examples that prove that older does not necessarily mean wiser. Some people are intelligent and learn from their experience and gain wisdom with age. Others are stupid when they are young and remain just as stupid when they get old, only they are even worse by that time because they become more set in their ways and incapable of change. So, age in itself doesn't mean a thing. Some older people are worthy of respect, others are not.
A person's mental age is still usually close to their physical age. But as you said, there are a lot of exceptions to that rule. I agree with you though in that people care about age too much, especially when it comes to adults.

As for the actual question, I agree more with Garak.
 
this respect for the elderly thing might be a relict from the good ole hunterer and gatherer days when the eldest of a tribe had the largest utilisable knowledge, and is kept alive in societies where the family has to look after grandpa and grandma because there is no social security system. not sure the wisdom, knowledge, and experiences of the elderly are so good today, the pace is somewhat faster.
 
The pace has nothing to do with it. Maybe an elderly person would be less likely to be your IT advisor, but as far as basic life experience and wisdom, I think we make a severe mistake if we refuse to listen.

(Now, the current "generation in power," I am not sure I would be so trusting of their advice when they grow up because THEY failed to listen to THEIR elders. But in general, I think this is how it ought to work, and I would not advocate unkindness or being dismissive.)
 
Neither. I think people are way too obsessed with age, and I hate all sorts of ageism. I never understood the idea that we should respect the elderly, or people who are older than us, just because of their age. Why does that in itself warrant respect? What did they do that is so amazing and praiseworthy? They survived?:shrug: The idea of respecting older people is based on the assumption that they have more life experience, but that means nothing in itself, if the person hasn't learned anything from that experience. I've seen far too many examples that prove that older does not necessarily mean wiser. Some people are intelligent and learn from their experience and gain wisdom with age. Others are stupid when they are young and remain just as stupid when they get old, only they are even worse by that time because they become more set in their ways and incapable of change. So, age in itself doesn't mean a thing. Some older people are worthy of respect, others are not.

On the other hand, there is also that superficial, incredibly hypocritical cult of youth, which I have always despised. Where does that idea that the first gray hair and the first lines on one's face is a tragedy come from? (Funny thing, it's always relatively young people who are whining about feeling old - has media brainwashed everyone to that extent?) I call the cult of youth hypocritical, because we all know that all the power structures on Earth, the people who make decisions and control everything, are by and large middle-aged or elderly. They're the ones who are obsessed with youth, and they are the ones responsible for the cult of youth: politicians who take pictures with children, talk about what they will do for the future of our young people, and flaunt their young associates - usually ambitious sycophantic upstarts - in the public to show that their party is 'giving a chance to the young'; employers who hire young people only because they think they're easier to exploit; producers and executives who want to see (if not do more with) young faces and bodies on their film and TV screen; those who are targeting the (in)famous "coveted 18 to whatever demographics" by producing idiotic comedies, superficial teen soaps and what not. You'd think from the the media and the public that young people are the most privileged and adored part of the human race, when in fact, they're just valued for pretty and happy young faces and fresh young bodies that can be put on the screen, in a commercial, or in a catwalk, or on the sports ground, or used in a political campaign, or serve as a bit on the side, or get sent to war to fight and get killed... and they're in fact treated like children who don't get to have a say and aren't in control of anything. They're just supposed to be young and pretty and strong and happy and shut up and do as told. Then they're get older and either 1) do not become powerful, in which case they're likely to get screwed if they ever get in a situation to lose their job and need a new one at the age of 50, or 2) they become successful, powerful middle-aged people, and start thinking that their life is so difficult because of all that responsability they have, and start believing the myth of what a wonderful thing youth is, the time you're so carefree and can just have fun and not worry about anything... because they have by that time forgotten what it really is like and that it's absolutely not all that carefree or fun - or maybe it really was like that for them, so they never think that it's actually quite difficult or miserable for many other people.
/rant

As is often the case, DevilEyes, you sum up a lot of my ideas on the subject (not all by any means but a lot) perfectly, and much better than I could myself.

There is indeed much hypocrisy to the human tendency for gerontocracy yet a simultaneous insistence on doing things supposedly for the sake of the young. As a young person myself, I know first hand that policies and social actions presented as "for the benefit of the young people" or "for the children" typically do more harm to these groups than good. The young, particularly children, are typically no more than pawns of the powerful and even, increasingly, their elders no matter the power those adults possess. I certainly know my adolescence has been a mass of contradictions- adults praised me constantly for my outlook, my intelligence, my prospects, yet the whole time my society was giving me glaring signals of "you just keep your head down and nod along with what they say, no matter how nonsensical, or you'll be in trouble". "Fresh new perspectives" they say, only to berate you for failing to parrot the excepted norm.

Part of the problem as I see it is ideology and ideological control. Humans seek solidarity through ideological unity, and those ideologies are rarely interested in the realities of the present (or, sometimes, sadly, realities full stop). And of course to integrate successfully into human society, one must typically embrace these ideologies, these masks, these self-deceptions, and turn away from what one knew as an adolescent or even a child. You can't get far if you refuse to play by the rules. Becoming an adult means buying into the ideological system. Instead of the consciousness maturing with adulthood, it seems to me the child's imagination matures into serving its true purpose- that purpose being an enabling of self deception so as to embrace collective ideology over reality and thus successfully integrate into the "world" of the adult. The young, the children and adolescents, while lacking in experience, tend to see the world the way it is, at least how it is for them (and within reason of their more limited conscious faculties). They do not yet possess ideology in most cases- they have yet no real need for it, though the indoctrination starts early. How many times have I seen young children give astute answers as to their social reality only for adults to laugh good-naturedly and simultaneously acknowledge yet dismiss it with "out of the mouths of babes"? It leaves me with my head in my hands. Listen to them, because not only is what they perceive essential information to you if you truly care about them, but often they're describing their world as it truly is, free from the tyranny of "what we want to see it as". The social environment the young grow up in- their genuine reality- lacks merit in human societies, though, because the ideology of the adult trumps it. I must say here I of course see nothing wrong in theory with the authority of the elder- of course the adult should have authority over the adolescent or the child. The problem is, the adolscent- if intelligent- often sees more clearly than the adult by virtue of not yet having entered the adult sphere, which requires acceptance of ideology. Yet they lack experience, and desperately want it. There is nothing the intelligent adolescent wants more than to have their elders teach and guide them, yet nothing more frustrating because most don't truly teach, only indoctrinate. I've experienced first-hand- and seen in many other adolescents- the sheer frustration in dealing with adults, particularly the middle-aged. And it's usually the intelligent adolescents who feel it, because they are the ones who most want to embrace the wisdom of their elders.

So, many of these adolescents cave in and become adults by embracing ideology and throwing aside what they know to be their truth. I nearly fell into the same trap myself. I remember being 13-14, or around that age, and deliberately deluding myself in order to spout out the "reality" of the adults around me, which I knew did not match the reality of my own experience, my own life. I very nearly started valuing their fantasy world over my own genuine reality, so strong was the desire to "learn from" and emulate the elders. Luckily I grew out of it- and that isn't an arrogant assertion that "I know best". I'm a university student- learning from those with more experience and knowledge is practically my job. But, as with most intelligent people who refuse to buy into the ideological fantasies, I am to all intents and purposes an outcast, with little hope of true achievement and little hope of power as I mature (and so the opportunity to change things). The adolescent who can navigate to adulthood and remain in possession of their truth and continue seeing things as they are (or at least, as they are for him/her) is a rare commodity. One that is not valued, and remains undervalued into maturity and old age.

I say the young need to fully and genuinely mature, which sadly all too often involves having the courage to resist the impositions of the elder, to learn without converting. Then, when they reach adulthood, they can mature properly, their years of experience being meaningful by virtue of genuinely reflecting true experience rather than years of living in a self-deceptive bubble. The individual who can actually continue to be governed by understanding of his/her surroundings and reality, who is governed by consciousness not ideology, will mature into a "wise" elder who is qualified to truly teach and guide the young.

Basically, I say the young should be guided by the wisdom of the old, and indeed are usually eager for guidence and role models. The problem is the old need to actually acquire wisdom first, which they all too typically do not. And rather than understanding the world their children are growing up in, they relate to the world as they've learnt to see it, which if it was ever correct in the first place, is now likely hopelessly out of date. Those with the power to change things and run things are blind- often willfully so- to the reality, because ideology trumps experience and the search for social solidarity trumps the search for personal understanding and truth. So our societies are always three steps behind themselves, responding to problems that don't exist or no longer exist and ignoring those that are wreaking havoc now. Ironically, the only ones who typically see are the young who lack the experience and knowledge to truly do anything about those problems. They can point and complain, but rarely advise, and thus are ignored or dismissed. Those who see lack experience and need advice. Those who should be in the position to bring experience to bear on the problem and to give the young advice are blind to reality (that was the price they paid for full admittance into adult human culture).

So, in theory and ideally, I have great respect for the aged. In practice, a great many young people eager to learn and achieve and move into the adult sphere are pressured into doing so by sacrificing consciousness in favour of ideology, so giving up the chance to truly become wise. It's a pattern I'm convinced our people need to break out of, and it starts, paradoxically and in opposition to both our customs and our natural desires (for the young typically want to learn from the old) with the mature actually listening to and learning from the young.
 
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Resistance is such a lonely and exausting road. You walk a different pace and most people hurry past you, leaving you to look at their backs. And I wonder is the fast road that so many people so desperatly follow the one towards happiness, wisdom and inner peace?
I doubt it...and still sometimes I envy them, because they have much more company, but its often so superficial. It is hard work to find the company on the slower road, there are some, but it takes time to find them (but when you find them it seems to be deeper and clearer company)...and their is no one to guide you.
At least I never found one to guide me, even I longed for someone like that when I was young...and actually guess even today I still would welcome someone like that.
It is an immense struggle to walk the way by yourself and I can see how many people fail...either giving up and start following the same road than most or getting torn to pieces.
And when you follow the different way people look at you odd or they smile at you...these sympathetic smiles and tell you, what a dreamer you are. And the older you get the worse it becomes...cause you know, by a certain age you should be an „adult“...BUT you should be like they define adult...as if that is the only definition.


What shooks me is, that more and more children seem to loose their colours at an earlier age. They stop seeing the "magic" and become those sad, angry small adult-copies. Guess its a question of survival....

Today the most important thing is knowledge....and yes, knowledge is good, but if its ONLY knowledge, it comes with such a high prize.... they have brain, but loose their hearts and soul. And the ones not capabel to have as much brain as others, but who maybe have big hearts and deep souls are the loosers. Brain seems more valuable then the rest...but all three are valuable. Children should have the chance to keep and develop all three (in my opinion)...so that they have the strengh to go their way … while nontheless are able to see the people and others creatures around them.
However its a dilemma.... do you „train“ them to succeed in society or do you help them staying true to themselves, even when it means that some may not be sucessfull in the definition of society, but maybe happier. My conciousness forbits me to only train them... but that leads to facing many angry adults, who want their children to have the success that society tells us success is. But society is deceiving. Sucess is much more than power and money, but so many people seem to forget it... and strive for that one goal, even they know only a minority will reach it. And is that minority happy?
Its like today we only runs for the goal, but never look at the way and see all the beauty that lies there. We never stop anymore...for just listening or smelling or looking or touching etc. And when you do, again people look odd at you...but it seems many would love to just stop running and running all the time. Guess thats why more and more people break down at one part of the way...so their body/soul forces them to finally take a breath.
There is so much potential that we destroy in our selfes and in our children. I mean look at school..look at how devastating school is for the potential of children. Some children get through school all right, because they adapt to how society wants them to be..and the rest?
So much potential shut away because of fear, of humiliation and that kind of sympathetic/pitty (?) smiles, that leaves your self worth feeling a the bottom.


Society and how it became what it is, is so complex...and we have so many complex societies on the world, that all mengle with each other to become an even more complex world.
I wonder, is in our world still a way to have both... origin and progress? Or do we truly have to leave origin behind when we want progress, flying loose in the air without any roots helping us to keep some sort of connection to who we are? I like progress, but loosing origin totally seems not healthy... and that is to feel and see in our society.


TerokNor
 
Resistance is such a lonely and exausting road. You walk a different pace and most people hurry past you, leaving you to look at their backs. And I wonder is the fast road that so many people so desperatly follow the one towards happiness, wisdom and inner peace?
I doubt it...and still sometimes I envy them, because they have much more company, but its often so superficial. It is hard work to find the company on the slower road, there are some, but it takes time to find them (but when you find them it seems to be deeper and clearer company)...and their is no one to guide you. At least I never found one to guide me, even I longed for someone like that when I was young...and actually guess even today I still would welcome someone like that.

Oh gods, yes. I always longed for a guide, someone to look up to. I still do, being at the age I am (which is still very young). But as with you, I never found anyone. I had to "grow up" alone, and I hated it. And as for what you say about "deeper and clearer" company among the outcast minority, I agree with that, too. Because those who feel in some way "outcast" or disassociated from others are so vivid to me, so individual, it's a pleasure to know them and learn about them. Maybe this is a benefit of remaining outside the realm of accepted society- it allows you to truly be an individual-, but it's a sad one, because it seems to me the more admirable and fascinating a person is the more likely they are to be an outcast. Those people who could steer society down so many worthy paths end up marginalized.

It is an immense struggle to walk the way by yourself and I can see how many people fail...either giving up and start following the same road than most or getting torn to pieces. And when you follow the different way people look at you odd or they smile at you...these sympathetic smiles and tell you, what a dreamer you are. And the older you get the worse it becomes... cause you know, by a certain age you should be an „adult“...BUT you should be like they define adult...as if that is the only definition.
What shocks me is, that more and more children seem to loose their colours at an earlier age. They stop seeing the "magic" and become those sad, angry small adult-copies. Guess its a question of survival....

Most people have little respect for children, in my experience. In most people's eyes, children are just...there. And they're useful to moralize over or make a fuss over or use as an excuse to complain about something, but they don't really care about them. They care for themselves, and feel entitled to have themselves placed first in everything. It seems to me that so many parents have no real understanding of what being a parent means. It's a sacred responsibility and privelige, yet they just don't seem to see it.

However its a dilemma.... do you "train“ them to succeed in society or do you help them staying true to themselves, even when it means that some may not be successful in the definition of society, but maybe happier.

I've already firmly decided on the latter. Yet I'm troubled, because I know it will mean my children will have to go through what I did. At least they'll have me there for them, or so I reassure myself.

There is so much potential that we destroy in our selves and in our children. I mean look at school..look at how devastating school is for the potential of children. Some children get through school all right, because they adapt to how society wants them to be..and the rest? So much potential shut away because of fear, of humiliation and that kind of sympathetic/pitty (?) smiles, that leaves your self-worth feeling at the bottom.

My favourite TV quote of all time (because I understood it and identified with it 100%, and it took my breath away how much it got it):

"My shoes are too tight"

"Excuse me?!"

"Something my father said. He was old, very old at the time. I came into his room and found him sitting alone in the dark, crying. So I asked him what was wrong and he said, 'my shoes are too tight. But it does not matter, because I have forgotten how to dance'. I never understood what he meant until now. My shoes are too tight...and I have forgotten how to dance".
 
The sad truth of that Quote gives me shivers. I never want to forget how to dance, even as it is...guess it´s a victory for society, I only dance in my small circle and not in the big anymore, too scared for that. But I found another way of lets say...."soft rebellion" .... that might be just as effective. ;)
However if one gets the insight in onself to see, that one has forgotten how to dance, theres hope the one might give it a try to relearn it, is there not? Sadly most people never get that insight, once they have forgotten.

TerokNor
 
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