The overblown cliche of "gritty DS9" and "bland" TNG

[sonak]

It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

But wait... didn't Worf KILL Duras in an honor fight against Duras? What about Riker's past as revealed in "Pegasus?" Or his troubled relationship with his Dad? For that matter Picard's relationship with his brother, Deanna's with Lwaxana, etc.

I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

 

[Kegek]

I agree. For that matter, DS9 is pretty tame when compared to other 'gritty' TV shows.

I think it's mainly just a simplification: Generally, DS9 has a darker take than TNG. I think that's undisputed, even by those who love TNG - like me. Not that 'dark' is equatable to 'good'. TNG is a more optimistic show in general, and that's fine by me.

 

[greenmystik]

Totally agree. I think that just because TNG wasn't "dark" or "gritty" like DS9 people tend to think everything else trek is bland. I think that's a horrible misconception. TNG was a great show, just because it didn't war doesn't mean it didn't wasn't realistic.

BTW, I know I will probably get lambasted by this but isn't trek supposed to be SCI-FI. Whats the point of making everything realistic. What's the matter with wanting to show a better "man" a la TNG. I love both shows (TNG more so) and never got why people bash TNG so much.

 

[Lilith]

greenmystik said:
I love both shows (TNG more so) and never got why people bash TNG so much.

I get why, I just think the reason is kinda bogus. The argument you hear so often is that the TNG crew was too peaceful, while the DS9 characters were proper depictions of human society as it is. Geez, I should hope that in three centuries we'll have evolved at least somewhat, so in that regard I personally hope that TNG will turn out to be the more realistic of the two in terms of philosophy

 

[KDoug]

I think the main difference in the character dynamics comes from the fact that the main characters had more varied points of view on DS9 compared to TNG. On TNG, the main characters were generally only concerned with how events affected the Federation (except, sometimes, for Worf). On DS9, some took the Federation's side, some Bajor's side, and some were on their own side. They're not so much "grittier" as more complicated.

 

[KDoug]

Blech, I take too long to figure out what I want to say! Anyway, in response to:

Lilith said:
The argument you hear so often is that the TNG crew was too peaceful, while the DS9 characters were proper depictions of human society as it is. Geez, I should hope that in three centuries we'll have evolved at least somewhat...

That point of view annoys me, as well. Some people think that the more immature the characters are, the "better" the show is. I don't mind imperfect characters, but imperfect doesn't have to mean immature. What really impresses me is intelligent, mature characters. I do think that DS9's characters were imperfect without going overboard into the immature territory. So, I really don't have a problem with their portrayals.

 

[Sharr Khan]

When "Encounter At Farpoint" first came on the air, when I first caught a picture of an Enterprise-D only consisting of the stardrive section I was geared up to love TNG... now I was young when TNG came on the air, it was "Star Trek" and I was thrilled...

...then I got began to age as those seven years moved forward I started to care less and less about TNG and not long after that "Star Trek" in general. The last Trek film I was enthused to see was TUC...

Guess what I'm saying is as my perspective grew I became more distant from the show. In retrospect I find it hard to watch any Next Generation episode because for me most of the characters fall flat as human beings and its a huge dramatic mess all rather bland and cardboard.

take all that for what you will.

Sharr

 

[Korczynski]

It's not so much that TNG was perfect and without conflict - however the basis is more a personal opinion. Of The Great Bird of the Galaxy.

And when the Great Bird spoke, his opinion carried a lot of weight.

Unless you think the Great Bird was a myth? You'd be mythtaken

 

[jkladis]

The significance of morality in the TNG universe helped highlight the impact of being defied by the DS9 one.

 

[Odon]

sonak said:
I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

Yes, but these were later episodes of TNG. I think this perception came about because the first few seasons of TNG *were* for the most part rather bland - I especially noticed it because here in Brisbane when the last episodes of TNG aired they immediately went back to showing the first season. There was a definite difference. Because DS9 began later they simply inherited the benefits of the writer's experience.

 

[greenmystik]

I think another reason that people get these perceptions is because DS9 was a bit more action oriented (at least after the first 2 or 3 seasons) than TNG. I think thats where the "bland" perception comes from.

 

[SiorX]

I always enjoyed the crew dynamic of TNG. I just love the fact that the crew all seem to like each other, and get along well. I know the lack of interpersonal conflict can at times be seen to put a dampner on dramatic potential, but honestly, I find it very difficult to rewatch quite a few seasons of DS9 because they all seem to waste so much time bitching at each other.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DS9's not a great show, just that if the perceived grittiness is actually in the way the characters frustrate each other, then it's certainly not the element of the series which I would laud above other Trek incarnations.

 

[greenmystik]

I thought that the crew of DS9 was pretty boring until season 3 anyway so I don't know where they get that idea from.

 

[Sharr Khan]

I always enjoyed the crew dynamic of TNG. I just love the fact that the crew all seem to like each other, and get along well.

The funny thing, the only people out of that whole group who I would ever imagine hanging around with was Worf or maybe Riker... the rest are just rather meh!

It could be for me that since "The Neutral Zone" aired TNG has left a rather condescending taste in my memory. I'm sure there are others but that's a stand out.

Sharr

 

[Goji]

I never believed DS9 to be gritty, but I do think TNG is overly bland. Not the stories so much (well, sometimes), just the characters. Dull, the lot of them, with a few exceptions.

 

[zenophite]

If i was in charge of the zoo any reference to "gritty" or "dark" by entertainment people would be punishable by 10 lashes in the public square.

 

[Orac Zen]

Kegek said:
For that matter, DS9 is pretty tame when compared to other 'gritty' TV shows.

I think it's mainly just a simplification: Generally, DS9 has a darker take than TNG. I think that's undisputed, even by those who love TNG - like me. Not that 'dark' is equatable to 'good'. TNG is a more optimistic show in general, and that's fine by me.

I completely agree with this. I find the idea that optimistic = simplistic = "bad" and dark 'n' gritty = complex = "good" ridiculously, almost insultingly simplistic. Too often that's exactly how the two shows are characterised. Trashing TNG because it's not more like a show that followed it (and without which DS9 would not even have existed) is kinda silly. To each their own.

 

[Sci]

I don't think it's so much a matter that DS9 was all that much darker and grittier. DS9 and TNG both reflected a belief system which holds that morality exists and is both relevant and attainable in our everyday lives and in our major decisions.

The three key points of distinction are as follows:

1) On DS9, the characters would sometimes deliberately do things that they knew to be at least somewhat morally wrong in the name of greater utilitarianism. This conflict between ideal morality and utilitarian morality is something that most people in real life go through on a fairly consistent basis; on TNG, however, the characters would rarely face such a choice, and, when they did, the situation would usually change so that a utilitarian choice would no longer be necessary. As a result, the TNG characters came across in many episodes -- not throughout the entire series, mind, but in in many episodes -- as being unrelatable -- so moral that it came across as being unrealistic.

2) On TNG, emotional characterization was intermittant. That is, the characters very often came across as being the living embodiments of their jobs: Picard is The Commander Of Great Intellect; Geordi is The Man Who Tinkers With Stuff, etc. The characters often did not come across as having deep and meaningful lives and relationships outside of their jobs. Again, this wasn't something that characterized every episode, but, more often than not, the characters, if we saw them off duty, were simply doing something bland, like having shallow conversations in Ten Forward. We rarely saw people being loud, or having heated discussions, or having meaningful personal lives that were unrelated to their jobs, or getting drunk. The characters came across as, quite frankly, having no lives.

3) On TNG, almost everyone reflected a pro-Federation point of view, and there were few character -- with the possible exception of Ro and Worf -- who reflected divergent belief systems. On DS9, by contrast, the primary cast reflected Bajoran, Federation, Ferengi, Cardassian, and Dominion points of view. In short, the political actors were far more diverse, and thus the belief systems espoused more diverse. TNG, on the other hand, tended to rely on guest characters who were usually antagonistic and viewed as being somehow villanous.

 

[MyCylon]

I think one of the things that bothers me most about TNG is that the impetus for "trouble" and the starting point for almost every episode has to come from an outside source. Where 'real' conflict is needed, somebody from the outside has to introduced to provide the opposing point of view - only to be proven wrong in the end.

If you take a look at DS9 - even the very first episode - much of the conflict is internal. Look, for example, at the start Sisko and Kira get off to. It's a bumpy one for sure and provides for much of the character dynamic.
Here, you've got two people with partly similar, partly different agendas who don't have much choice but to work together.
The type of interaction between Sisko and Kira alone is something I could not picture on TNG. And, honestly, taking Starfleet as an example, I don't find Sisko to be less of an 'evolved' human - he simply has a far more difficult situation on his hands that only becomes more difficult as things move on.
Just try picturing Picard on DS9 instead of DS9. I don't think he would have had the luxury of riding such a high moral horse. And he'd have had a far harder time dealing with someone like Kira.
In the final analysis, I'd have to say that, yes, it'd be great if everyone could get along the way the folks on TNG do. But, honestly, I don't think it makes for interesting viewing a lot of the time. I prefer at least a certain amount of internal conflict because I honestly think that's the way people are always going to be. They're always going to have different viewpoints and disagree. The main question is: How are these difference resolved? Can an agreement be reached? How can people learn to live together in a civilized manner without losing their identity? I think that's what a lot of DS9 is about and what I find very attractive.
I just don't see any of that on TNG, really.

 

[sonak]

I think the point about more diverse points of view and internal conflict rather than from external sources is again a matter of format. After all, about half of the characters on DS9 WEREN'T STARFLEET! Of course there'd be anti-Federation voices in that crowd.

The characters on TNG, in contrast, were all Starfleet. It took place on a Starfleet ship, not a space station with civilians on it. That's a huge difference.