THE ORVILLE - S1, E4: "IF THE STARS SHOULD APPEAR"...

[Trekker4747]

Not necessarily to the same people, sorry.

Trek "omitted" an explanation of the Klingon foreheads for decades and no one with any sense complained.

The nitpicking about 'why didn't they explain this or that" is one of my long-time complaints about Trek fandom and the Franchise's increasing tendency to pander to that are just two more reasons I prefer The Orville.

The Klingon forehead thing always drove me nuts. Not the change, but that so many felt the need to make it an issue instead of chalking it up to a change in production values and resources. The Klingons always looked like that, TOS just didn't have the means to pull this off.

And they had the perfect opportunity to cement this with DS9's "Trials and Tribblations" where the DS9 crew travels back to the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles." All they had to do was ignore it. Just leave it alone. Don't have the crew notice the difference and treat the TOS Klingons as if they looked like post-TMP Klingons. Maybe at *most* have a text card or cast member at the start of the episode say, "We know there's a difference because of production values, but in the universe of the franchise there is no difference." But they had to call attention to it and cement "in canon" that there was a difference and "something" had happened in the past. :facepalm:

 

[Ometiklan]

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but here is my take on this episode.

It was ok. Just like the 3 episodes before it. Some of the jokes worked well, some didn't. Overall the story was ok, though a bit of a rehash of TOS's "For the World is Hollow...".

While I like "The Orville" overall, I just realized my overall feelings for it:
- It is not funny enough/comedic enough to be entertaining simply as a comedy. It doesn't even try hard enough to be a comedy with meaningful insights or messages. For example, Community is a show i would say was very much focused on being funny but was also always trying to say something important about the characters or the situation.
- It is not a serious enough look at issues - though it tries some. For example, in "If the stars should appear" they never think for one second to consider what they are actually stepping into or their impact on the society they are dealing with. I realize that a "prime directive" equivalent hasn't been stated to exist for The Union, but given that the setting is supposed to be a utopic, idealistic future for humanity, it doesn't seem that the crew should be totally inconsiderate of the consequences of their actions. In fact, overall the crew seems to be rather ignorant of what they might come across out in space - given the size of the Union and their intimate knowledge of Earth pop culture, everyone should immediately recognize a generational ship or at least know what that implies once they ID it.

[The same goes for "About A Girl". Though Mercer tries to "police himself" on his position via the baby's operation, the whole rest of the episode is all the characters railing at Bortus about how wrong his culture is until he has an epiphany and changes his mind. It just seems like the characters are totally unaware that there might be culture clashes, that they might be wrong, or that no one might be wrong, or that everyone might be wrong. The characters just come across as ignorant and inexperienced, but not that they are purposefully written that way. I was especially stunned that the Doctor didn't even consider reviewing Bortas' culture's medical practices and legalities regarding the surgery. You would think any "ethical" doctor of an advanced, multiple world union would be aware that other cultures have different practices and would at least do some research before dismissing it out of hand. I did see reviews mentioning problems with "About a Girl" but I haven't read any to see what they were covering, so maybe this has been covered in depth already.]

Long story short: The Orville isn't funny enough to be a great comedy, it doesn't even try to send a message via its comedy; and it isn't that great of a idea exploring sci-fi show and covers only the surface level of the topics.

I will keep watching as it is entertaining, but it isn't what I was hoping for as a funnier take on TNG-era sci-fi.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I was especially stunned that the Doctor didn't even consider reviewing Bortas' culture's medical practices and legalities regarding the surgery.

Even if she considered it, she'd still have to act in accordance with the Hippocratic Oath. Performing such an operation is mutilation of a healthy body. There is no medical condition being treated, either psychological or physical. The purpose of the surgery is solely for sociological reasons external to the patient in question. The fact that she turns him down flat is not surprising in the least.

 

[Ometiklan]

Even if she considered it, she'd still have to act in accordance with the Hippocratic Oath. Performing such an operation is mutilation of a healthy body. There is no medical condition being treated, either psychological or physical. The purpose of the surgery is solely for sociological reasons external to the patient in question. The fact that she turns him down flat is not surprising in the least.

They make a big deal of it in the trial that there is no medical problem with simply being female, but having done no research how does the Dr. Finn know that the Moclans don't have medical or psychological problems associated with being female? If there are associated problems, that could be the reason it is rare in their culture.

Additionally, during the trial when they brought up circumcision, neither the doctor nor anyone else mentions that there are slight heath benefits associated with circumcision (though the association isn't a certainty currently, and maybe by 2415 it has been found to be incorrect). I would expect the writers to have done research and at least note it in the trial since they brought it up in the first place.

This is where I feel the characters (because of the writers) are made to seem ignorant or inexperienced or simply inconsiderate. A Dr. McCoy or Crusher wouldn't pretend to automatically know all they need to about an alien species, medically, unless they were already some kind of renowned expert in that species, and Dr. Finn doesn't come across as such (since if she were, she would know they regularly perform this operation).

I wouldn't expect a doctor from a multi-species Union to be so off hand with the decision - I would expect them to do the research, come to a medical decision. If the decision ran counter to the request of the crewman I would expect the doctor to have to make a report to captain when the crewman requests remedy from the captain. Maybe it is the lighter, more comedic take on the universe that the show doesn't want to get bogged down in "real" scenarios and just wants to talk some morals and have some jokes.

 

[Mojochi]

It's become more true over the decades in film and less true of TV. This is convergence - movie editors take advantage of the "TV vocabulary" that viewers have been learning for decades and TV has striven to become more "cinematic."

Trek over-explains in part, perhaps, to satisfy the feedback the writers get from a nitpicky fanbase.

Heck, Orville doesn't have time to fit a Trek type story into an hour on current television, what with increased ads & their goal of more frequent humor, without trimming every last bit of fat

My biggest gripe of this show is how a lot of stuff that makes the episode teasers doesn't actually make the episode. That's common on most shows, but they really seem to stumble on it more than most, I assume because of how much gets trimmed for time. No room for extemporaneous stuff imho

 

[Tribble puncher]

Even if she considered it, she'd still have to act in accordance with the Hippocratic Oath. Performing such an operation is mutilation of a healthy body. There is no medical condition being treated, either psychological or physical. The purpose of the surgery is solely for sociological reasons external to the patient in question. The fact that she turns him down flat is not surprising in the least.

But to Bortas (sp), in the beginning at least, when he asks the doctor for help, in his societies view, IT IS a medical condition, and his child's body is NOT healthy, as being female is not just seen as socially bad, but in a one gender society, perhaps she would have never been able to procreate, honestly, I don't think they really explored this enough. I felt like they (writers) were trying to shoehorn some SJW type message in, but not knowing enough about how the Maklan's (sp) reproductive structure's, etc. What could have been interesting perhaps is if during the course of the story, the Orville crew finds out there were once male/female Baklans but in order to maintain peace or something, they altered themselves genetically to be asexual generations ago, so any individual born with only one set of sexual organs is "fixed" at birth to be asexual in the present. Still, I applaud the writers for the attempt, I can at least tell they were trying.

 

[Markonian]

Even if she considered it, she'd still have to act in accordance with the Hippocratic Oath. Performing such an operation is mutilation of a healthy body. There is no medical condition being treated, either psychological or physical. The purpose of the surgery is solely for sociological reasons external to the patient in question. The fact that she turns him down flat is not surprising in the least.

That applies to circumcision, too.

 

[Mudd]

Finn acted like McCoy rather than a Roddenberry Revisionism doctor.

Points awarded to Orville.

 

[JohnChod]

Just wanted to chime in briefly - Based on the previews, I expected a comedy romp. The reviews revealed the show to be otherwise and it was called not funny enough and not dramatic enough - a strange cross between genres. I was disappointed to hear that and put off watching for a week before catching the first two episodes on demand. Since then, I've caught episodes 3 and 4 as well.

I'm hooked. It's just great fun with sufficient silly / stupid humor, nice sci-fi touches and the Star Trek TOS atmosphere. I don't think a show has just made me smile this much since Boston Legal.

On the other hand, I watched the broadcast premiere of Discovery. I honestly hoped it was going to be good enough to make me sign up for CBS All Access. I was not impressed. It was OK, but that's all I can say about it. I'll probably watch it at some point if I can do so on the cheap.

 

[Sophie74656]

I've always been fine with certain things being omitted in Trek. People complain that Voyager looks perfect the following episode after being in a battle....but I've always been fine with that. I don't need time out of the 40 minutes of episode to see someone repairing a bulkhead. I can make the leap that between the two episodes the repairs were done.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

They make a big deal of it in the trial that there is no medical problem with simply being female, but having done no research how does the Dr. Finn know that the Moclans don't have medical or psychological problems associated with being female? If there are associated problems, that could be the reason it is rare in their culture.

If she's well versed enough with Moclan physiology and biochemistry to perform a complete sex change, including fully functional reproductive organs, she's experienced enough to decide if the procedure is necessary. Furthermore, we see a live example of a health Moclan female later in the episode who is old enough to have outlived her parents and become a respected author, and there's no argument presented in the episode that female Moclans are less healthy in general. The arguments in the trial itself seem to be centered around male superiority, not health.

But to Bortas (sp), in the beginning at least, when he asks the doctor for help, in his societies view, IT IS a medical condition, and his child's body is NOT healthy[...]

As I established above, that's not the case, and the views of a particular race to not absolve her of her own responsibilities under the Hippocratic Oath. She's responsible for making her own judgment as a Doctor.

[...]as being female is not just seen as socially bad, but in a one gender society, perhaps she would have never been able to procreate, honestly, I don't think they really explored this enough.

In the episode? Perhaps, but there was no suggestion that females are medically incapable of reproducing, so I don't see how that plays into the doctor's decision.

Mind you, there are an infinite number of hypotheses one can make for anything not explicitly stated. However, these hypotheses have no real merit, because they by definition aren't based on any facts.

I felt like they (writers) were trying to shoehorn some SJW type message in, but not knowing enough about how the Maklan's (sp) reproductive structure's, etc.

I invoke the feminist version of Godwin's Law: You said "SJW", so you automatically lose the argument.

What could have been interesting perhaps is if during the course of the story, the Orville crew finds out there were once male/female Baklans but in order to maintain peace or something, they altered themselves genetically to be asexual generations ago, so any individual born with only one set of sexual organs is "fixed" at birth to be asexual in the present.

Other than the fact that you're using the term "asexual" incorrectly, what you say isn't impossible within the context of the episode, but they really didn't have time in the episode to explore the topic to that level of detail, and it's often better to leave such details to the imaginations of the fans anyway.

That applies to circumcision, too.

First of all, male circumcision isn't medically necessary. That's why they're no longer a routine procedure in hospitals like they were in the 1970s.

Second, male circumcision is trivial compared to a sex change, and has no real impact on personal identity or sexuality. The two procedures are both qualitatively and quantitatively different.

Third, if we're talking about "female circumcision", that's already illegal in most of the Western world.

 

[Ometiklan]

If she's well versed enough with Moclan physiology and biochemistry to perform a complete sex change, including fully functional reproductive organs, she's experienced enough to decide if the procedure is necessary. Furthermore, we see a live example of a health Moclan female later in the episode who is old enough to have outlived her parents and become a respected author, and there's no argument presented in the episode that female Moclans are less healthy in general...

I would argue that it is implied that Dr. Finn is NOT well versed enough to perform the sex change because she was unaware even that the Moclans regularly do the procedure.

Second, one female living to old age provides only anecdotal evidence of a single healthy female. We don't even know if she underwent any health treatments after she was born. My whole point is that the characters make claims about Moclans and their heatlh/biology about which they are shown to have little to no knowledge, or about which no support is provided.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I would argue that it is implied that Dr. Finn is NOT well versed enough to perform the sex change because she was unaware even that the Moclans regularly do the procedure.

Possible, perhaps. Implied, no. Her ability to perform the procedure is never questioned in the episode. However, the point is moot because that would actually be a reason for her to NOT perform the procedure. How could she morally justify performing a procedure she's not qualified for?

One could make the argument, however, that if the doctor has sufficient knowledge of xenobiology, and a sufficient general knowledge of Moclan biology, she could perform the procedure. In fact, she has two male Moclans to use as references, one of which has actually undergone the procedure himself.

Second, one female living to old age provides only anecdotal evidence of a single healthy female. We don't even know if she underwent any health treatments after she was born. My whole point is that the characters make claims about Moclans and their heatlh/biology about which they are shown to have little to no knowledge, or about which no support is provided.

What there is no support for is your entire argument. For instance, what medical condition would a female Moclan suffer from other than "being female"? All the arguments the Moclans used could be applied to human females. In fact, in some countries, where female fetuses are frequently aborted because of a preference for male children, those arguments actually are being applied to human females.

Are you arguing that being a social outcast is a medical condition? Would it be okay to perform brain surgery on a gay newborn to make them heterosexual? Red hair used to make people social outcasts. If that were still true, would it be justifiable to give them gene therapy at birth to change the color of their hair? Social acceptance has never been a good indicator of morality.

 

[Ometiklan]

Possible, perhaps. Implied, no. Her ability to perform the procedure is never questioned in the episode. However, the point is moot because that would actually be a reason for her to NOT perform the procedure. How could she morally justify performing a procedure she's not qualified for?

One could make the argument, however, that if the doctor has sufficient knowledge of xenobiology, and a sufficient general knowledge of Moclan biology, she could perform the procedure. In fact, she has two male Moclans to use as references, one of which has actually undergone the procedure himself.

What there is no support for is your entire argument. For instance, what medical condition would a female Moclan suffer from other than "being female"? All the arguments the Moclans used could be applied to human females. In fact, in some countries, where female fetuses are frequently aborted because of a preference for male children, those arguments actually are being applied to human females.

Are you arguing that being a social outcast is a medical condition? Would it be okay to perform brain surgery on a gay newborn to make them heterosexual? Red hair used to make people social outcasts. If that were still true, would it be justifiable to give them gene therapy at birth to change the color of their hair? Social acceptance has never been a good indicator of morality.

- First, you said "If she's well versed enough with Moclan physiology and biochemistry to perform a complete sex change, including fully functional reproductive organs, she's experienced enough to decide if the procedure is necessary". I am arguing that she isn't, as evidenced by she didn't even know the procedure was performed regularly. Now you say that if she knows enough about other alien biology and physiology, then that is good enough? She may know some other alien biologies well enough that she might be able to do the procedure (and I would kind of hope she is knowledgeable about someone's). But she clearly isn't knowledgeable about Moclans, so none of this is a foregone conclusion. And if she doesn't know about Moclans, then I don't think we can reasonable say that Bortas has a full understanding of her capabilities when asking her in the first place. He is assuming she is capable, but she demonstrates a lack of expertise in her response.

- Second, "what medical condition would a female Moclan suffer from other than "being female" "? I don't know, and neither does Dr. Finn when she denies the procedure. And I am not saying "being female" is a condition. I am saying that other conditions might indeed arise from having the Moclan equivalent of two X chromosomes. Human males have conditions that arise due to physiology and genetics that human females don't, but we as a species still need both to reproduce, so heritable traits that kill/significantly harm reproductively-capable males don't survive in the general population enough to endanger the entire male portion of the population. They can't, based on how sexual reproduction and evolution tend to work. But in a race that has two genders, but which only requires one to procreate, the other gender could have serious heritable conditions and not endanger the survivability of the whole population and in fact could conceivable lead to a population made of a majority of, but not entirely, males.

- Third, I made no mention of how humans should or do treat these ideas today, and I am making no claims here.

- Fourth, I also made no mention about 'social outcast' status. I am simply arguing that the characters have no expertise in and demonstrated no interest in actually gaining knowledge about the conditions they were willing to make medical decisions about and speak in front of a tribunal about.

I guess this is some of what I heard about in terms of significant criticism about this episode. But I never figured I would be in an argument where my advocation of a character getting more information about something they were making important medical and ethical decisions about would be considered incorrect.

 

[Phoenix219]

The Klingon forehead thing always drove me nuts. Not the change, but that so many felt the need to make it an issue instead of chalking it up to a change in production values and resources. The Klingons always looked like that, TOS just didn't have the means to pull this off.

And they had the perfect opportunity to cement this with DS9's "Trials and Tribblations" where the DS9 crew travels back to the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles." All they had to do was ignore it. Just leave it alone. Don't have the crew notice the difference and treat the TOS Klingons as if they looked like post-TMP Klingons. Maybe at *most* have a text card or cast member at the start of the episode say, "We know there's a difference because of production values, but in the universe of the franchise there is no difference." But they had to call attention to it and cement "in canon" that there was a difference and "something" had happened in the past. :facepalm:

The best way of handling it would be a two fold solution from Trials and Tribblations - Ignore the issue completely - and ALSO have Michael Dorn dressed up in old school Klingon make up. And STILL have everyone ignore it. Don't even have the characters point it out as a joke.

 

[Trekker4747]

The best way of handling it would be a two fold solution from Trials and Tribblations - Ignore the issue completely - and ALSO have Michael Dorn dressed up in old school Klingon make up. And STILL have everyone ignore it. Don't even have the characters point it out as a joke.

You know what, that would have been hilarious AND brilliant.

On the other topic above:

I think, sort of like with Trek, with these kinds of issues and episodes it's important to not try and analyze and rationalize it too much and take it for the allegory for a message that there is.

Bortus's race has, for however long, operated as a single-gender one and regard females as unneeded. This could either be by design or some biological evolution. Females aren't needed and it's felt they're a hinderence to a productive life and it is something that needs to be corrected. We need not go any deeper than that and get into how they got this way or what is "right" but just the general quesion:

"Is it right to alter a newborn's body to conform to social norms because some birth abnormality could cause them to have a difficult life or to be a social outcast."

We needn't even get specifically into making this a gender issue and could make this about almost any birth defect or abnormality that is seen before birth (sometimes leading to an abortion.) And particularly as we get better at detecting this stuff, correcting it en-utero or even being able to do "designer babies."

It's a decision many thousands all over the world are faced with regularly, whether or not to perform a drastic surgery on a child because their life *may* be hampered by some benign birth defect. There are children born with both sets of male and female reproductive organs and the parent usually has to make the choice on which way to raise the child so the necessary operation can be had; and it's often suggested to go female as that operation is easier and many times the child grows into an adult feeling as part of the wrong gender because their physical body doesn't match who they are psychologically. (Which leads to some, but not all, cases of transgenderism.) But this isn't a decision that must be made at birth, it's just one made to make things easier for the parents and, presumably, easier for the child so they're not an outcast later in life.

It's a story that's very much "old-school Trek" as it's an absurd set-up of circumstances that's meant to play as an allegory to present-day issues. No need to try and read deeper into it to understand why things are this way or why characters know or don't know certain things. The message is what's more on display here.

 

[Ometiklan]

...It's a story that's very much "old-school Trek" as it's an absurd set-up of circumstances that's meant to play as an allegory to present-day issues. No need to try and read deeper into it to understand why things are this way or why characters know or don't know certain things. The message is what's more on display here.

I agree with you that the "message" is probably what should be most at issue here. I just felt the characters should be shown to be arguing from a perspective of knowledge and understanding, especially when they were willing to make it a legal matter. Again, it is The Orville probably just wanting to have a fun show with a light take on these issues.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah, and it was still handled it a somewhat clumsy manner but, still, it feels pretty solidly like "Trek" and like the type of issues and discussions any of the other series would generate.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

First, you said "If she's well versed enough with Moclan physiology and biochemistry to perform a complete sex change, including fully functional reproductive organs, she's experienced enough to decide if the procedure is necessary". I am arguing that she isn't, as evidenced by she didn't even know the procedure was performed regularly.

That's not an ignorance of medicine, that in ignorance of their society. You're equating an M.D. with an xenoanthropologist.

Now you say that if she knows enough about other alien biology and physiology, then that is good enough? She may know some other alien biologies well enough that she might be able to do the procedure (and I would kind of hope she is knowledgeable about someone's). But she clearly isn't knowledgeable about Moclans, so none of this is a foregone conclusion.

Again, you haven't established that she doesn't know enough about Moclan biology to perform the procedure. You've only established that she's not familiar with Moclan culture, which is not a function of her job. However, it might be fair to say that she has no experience with performing a sex change on an infant in general, because that's clearly unethical.

It should also be pointed out that she's probably already performed an examination of the newborn to determine that she is healthy, as that is what you'd expect a ship's doctor to do when one of the crew has a baby. Any such check-up would probably include screening for genetic and physiological problems.

And if she doesn't know about Moclans, then I don't think we can reasonable say that Bortas has a full understanding of her capabilities when asking her in the first place. He is assuming she is capable, but she demonstrates a lack of expertise in her response.

There is nothing demonstrated in her response to suggest that she has a specific lack of medical knowledge, and the fact that Bortas would request that she perform the procedure would suggest he had reasonable confidence in her abilities, especially since he request that the Captain intervene with the doctor on his behalf, which suggests that Bortas does not feel that her response indicates any lack of medical knowledge on her part.

Second, "what medical condition would a female Moclan suffer from other than "being female" "? I don't know, and neither does Dr. Finn when she denies the procedure.

Presumption. She may well be sufficiently versed in Moclan genetics to determine of the DNA of the baby would result in any medical conditions, and she can probably perform DNA simulations to determine that even if she lacked familiarity. It is the future, after all. And, in fact, the issue of such genetic conditions is never even broached in the episode.

And I am not saying "being female" is a condition.

The Moclans were the ones who view it as a condition, and it is the only condition that's actually mentioned in the episode, which is why I brought it up.

I am saying that other conditions might indeed arise from having the Moclan equivalent of two X chromosomes. Human males have conditions that arise due to physiology and genetics that human females don't, but we as a species still need both to reproduce, so heritable traits that kill/significantly harm reproductively-capable males don't survive in the general population enough to endanger the entire male portion of the population. They can't, based on how sexual reproduction and evolution tend to work. But in a race that has two genders, but which only requires one to procreate, the other gender could have serious heritable conditions and not endanger the survivability of the whole population and in fact could conceivable lead to a population made of a majority of, but not entirely, males.

Here's the problem with that: You made the whole thing up. It may be theoretically possible, but it's not indicated in the episode, and it's unfair to hold the characters to task for not knowing or considering problems that you don't know exist in the first place. I mean, heck, did the doctor check to see if Moclan females emit a rare form of nearly undetectable radiation that only females emit? How neglectful of her. Get that baby a sex change before everyone dies of space cancer. See, I can make up stuff they "failed to consider" too.

I agree with you that the "message" is probably what should be most at issue here. I just felt the characters should be shown to be arguing from a perspective of knowledge and understanding, especially when they were willing to make it a legal matter. Again, it is The Orville probably just wanting to have a fun show with a light take on these issues.

The show can't possibly encompass the entirety of every subject they explore. If they were forced to do so, it would probably bog down the story with endless asides and muddy any kind of allegory they were trying to make. Worse, the added complexity would only give the show more attack surface for critics who want to pick apart every part of the story.

 

[Ometiklan]

That's not an ignorance of medicine, that in ignorance of their society. You're equating an M.D. with an xenoanthropologist...

The show can't possibly encompass the entirety of every subject they explore...

Since you mentioned it, since Dr. Finn did declare the baby to be healthy, so I guess she does have some kind of knowledge of what they should be like. So she knows something.

As for culture vs medicine, i would still think that such a fact would be among the introductory information a doctor would receive about their species because it is pertinent, especially when her crew has some Moclans: 1) average/height weight humanoid, 2) standard carbon based biology, 3) all male race, reproduces via eggs..., 4) occasional female births, often dealt with by surgery at birth... but I guess we differ on this point.

Last points:

- I would still prefer that the show present these professionals as either knowledgeable in their field or willing to learn.

- As for "not being able to encompass the entirety..." I don't want them to cover everything, I just wanted them to be accurate in what was presented in the episode especially when it is presented as a serious matter (e.g., affecting their whole society and being a legal and ethical matter). If the show wants a goof off episode or a humorous portrayal of some element of a culture, then that is perfectly fine. But this episode wasn't playing this part for laughs.

One other very minor element I didn't mention: I was surprised they had Kelly perform as advocate, and didn't call for a JAG officer. The Orville ships seem fast enough that it shouldn't be an issue. Especially since Moclus is part of the Union, there should be an embassy or the equivalent, maybe even a space station with appropriate staff. The show didn't provide any reasoning why that wouldn't be possible (time constraints or had to be someone with X knowledge or in Bortas' chain of command, etc.). A minor quibble, but at least "Measure of a Man" excused it with having no other JAG staff present (not the best excuse, but something). Yeah, Kelly's presentation was somewhat humorous, but maybe not the best defense of their position?