The "original" Ten-Forward

[Brutal Strudel]

You've got to cut them some slack in that department.
In the end the model and the effects are there just to give us an "idea" of what is going on. If we're going to examine every single model shot in this series then we're going to have a LOT of questions. As to why the size of the Stargazer is so great compared to the Ent-D (when the Constellation would be much smaller in comparison), the sizes of the BOPs tend to be much greater, starships routinely encounter one another practicaly sitting ontop of one another.

This is anal-ness to a great degree.

Cut-away diagrams have been done fitting the 42-decks into the ship, fudging 10-forward into the saucer-rim. It's what's established as "canon" from what we've seen on screen. Now we must "make" it work while also cutting them some slack.

As Science Fiction fans, all too frequently disappointed by the crap these ignorant idiot producers force on us, I don't think we should be giving them any slack. That's how this stuff keeps coming back on us.

Imagine a movie about the beheading of Marie Antoinette that shows her head being sawed off with a plastic butter knife (because it was a cheaper prop). Would you give those producers some slack?

One of the reasons I left TNG was the constant battles I had trying to get "those in charge" to understand their audience and it's expectations. When the E-D was too large for the ILM Space Dock, the Producers (not Gene, who wasn't in charge by then) shrugged and stated that it was now a larger Dock. When I asked everybody why the guest-ship-of-the-week was ALWAYS too large, they told me it would be hard to see the smaller ship. When I explained that it would show the true size of the E-D,... they shrugged it off. The same narrow-mindedness embraced the nose-to-nose ship rendezvous, with consideration of scale ignored by those who were incapable of understanding it. The Conference Lounge had a door label containing that designation all through the show until the sets were struck, yet Burman suddenly decides to call it an "observation lounge",... so that now is supposed to be canon? Observation Lounges were designed into the rim of the ship's two hulls, and the Conference Lounge was designed for Command Officers' meetings... all approved by Gene.

These people are more interested in placing their own egotistical brand on something than honor the norm, not to mention understanding the concept of continuity. That's why you have different uniforms, weapons, and communicators in every Trek motion picture. Look at the movie with the Regula space station. Everybody knows it's the Space Office complex turned upside down and they were too cheap/lazy to even change the windows... or they assumed we all were too stupid to notice it. So how does that work? You drop to your knees to look out the damn windows???

That's why spaceships fly like airplanes (except in 'Babylon 5', thank you). That's why the new Godzilla didn't look like it was supposed to. That's why the flying saucer in the upcoming 'Day The Earth Stood Still' will look like a frickin' bubble, and that's why the new Trek movie will look the way it does.

No,... these people are degrading the genre and they deserve NO slack.

Andrew-

Now tell us how you really feel.

?

Probert just took a not-at-all veiled swipe at the precious and inviolate Star Trek XI. Let him have it!

(Aside to Mr. Probert: You are, of course, completely right.)

 

[Probert]

Please don't get me wrong... I'm not upset at what you all are saying, in fact every thread I've visited, on this BBS, has been full of helpful critiques and valuable opinions and this one is no exception. I enjoy your insights, intellect, and humor.

Yes, I totally agree that the visuals are there to support the story; no question. But what gets me is the fact that people are typically put in charge of projects they don't understand. Here's an example: Berman was asked if we (the FX guys) could shoot the Enterprise departing,... not horizontally like we see time after time at the end of each episode,... but angle straight up or veer downward to it's next destination. He said no "because it would confuse the audience". * What ??? * Space is three dimensional... it would be awesome to see an unexpected move like that.

Let's hope things get better. I'm still working on my own show, FRONTIER, so maybe that will be the real eye-opener for me.

Andrew-

 

[Trekker4747]

Well, Berman was an idiot.

The spiraling demise of the franchise with Voyager and Enterprise proved that. As he vastly underestimated the audience. VASTLY.

He wanted "show vanilla" just generic TV he could shovel out and make a dime on. And I say this as someone who LOVES TNG but even I realize how "vanilla" it was at times compared to how it should've been,

Anyone, ANYONE in charge rather than Berman could've done great things. The guy only should've been running the money and financing of the show, not making creative decisions like that. If he given the creators a bit more of looser leash it'd of been amazing what TNG, Voyager and Enterprise could've become.

But stories like your are "par for the course" on things I've read on those who've worked with Berman. He was only interested in putting the basest of "product" out there, not caring about quality or creativity. I mean, wasn't he the one who insisted on switching over to "music wallpaper" rather than much bolder music?

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Please don't get me wrong... I'm not upset at what you all are saying, in fact every thread I've visited, on this BBS, has been full of helpful critiques and valuable opinions and this one is no exception. I enjoy your insights, intellect, and humor.

Yes, I totally agree that the visuals are there to support the story; no question. But what gets me is the fact that people are typically put in charge of projects they don't understand. Here's an example: Berman was asked if we (the FX guys) could shoot the Enterprise departing,... not horizontally like we see time after time at the end of each episode,... but angle straight up or veer downward to it's next destination. He said no "because it would confuse the audience". * What ??? * Space is three dimensional... it would be awesome to see an unexpected move like that.

Let's hope things get better. I'm still working on my own show, FRONTIER, so maybe that will be the real eye-opener for me.

Andrew-

Your own show? I'm intrigued. Any other details, or is this Majestic 12/Area 51 levels of secrecy?

 

[Unicron]

Yes, I totally agree that the visuals are there to support the story; no question. But what gets me is the fact that people are typically put in charge of projects they don't understand. Here's an example: Berman was asked if we (the FX guys) could shoot the Enterprise departing,... not horizontally like we see time after time at the end of each episode,... but angle straight up or veer downward to it's next destination. He said no "because it would confuse the audience". * What ??? * Space is three dimensional... it would be awesome to see an unexpected move like that.

It's the Dilbert Principle at work. Just the other night, we got an email at my workplace from someone in management. We have these uniform T-shirts which were made to commemorate the number of people our business locally served in 2007 (a bit more than 10,000), and we've been wearing them interchangeably with our other work shirts. That's been true for probably a good six months now.

So this email we got yesterday said that, effectively immediately, we were only allowed to wear these T-shirts one day a week instead of whenever we chose to wear them to work. Their reasoning? T-shirts are "casual" clothes and don't look as "professional" as our other shirts. Even those that are clearly designed as a uniform. I don't really mind personally, but I do think management was bored.

 

[FalTorPan]

Let's hope things get better. I'm still working on my own show, FRONTIER, so maybe that will be the real eye-opener for me.

Andrew-

Your own show? I'm intrigued. Any other details, or is this Majestic 12/Area 51 levels of secrecy?

Check it out.

 

[Forbin]

You've got to cut them some slack in that department.
In the end the model and the effects are there just to give us an "idea" of what is going on. If we're going to examine every single model shot in this series then we're going to have a LOT of questions. As to why the size of the Stargazer is so great compared to the Ent-D (when the Constellation would be much smaller in comparison), the sizes of the BOPs tend to be much greater, starships routinely encounter one another practicaly sitting ontop of one another.

This is anal-ness to a great degree.

Cut-away diagrams have been done fitting the 42-decks into the ship, fudging 10-forward into the saucer-rim. It's what's established as "canon" from what we've seen on screen. Now we must "make" it work while also cutting them some slack.

As Science Fiction fans, all too frequently disappointed by the crap these ignorant idiot producers force on us, I don't think we should be giving them any slack. That's how this stuff keeps coming back on us.

Imagine a movie about the beheading of Marie Antoinette that shows her head being sawed off with a plastic butter knife (because it was a cheaper prop). Would you give those producers some slack?

One of the reasons I left TNG was the constant battles I had trying to get "those in charge" to understand their audience and it's expectations. When the E-D was too large for the ILM Space Dock, the Producers (not Gene, who wasn't in charge by then) shrugged and stated that it was now a larger Dock. When I asked everybody why the guest-ship-of-the-week was ALWAYS too large, they told me it would be hard to see the smaller ship. When I explained that it would show the true size of the E-D,... they shrugged it off. The same narrow-mindedness embraced the nose-to-nose ship rendezvous, with consideration of scale ignored by those who were incapable of understanding it. The Conference Lounge had a door label containing that designation all through the show until the sets were struck, yet Burman suddenly decides to call it an "observation lounge",... so that now is supposed to be canon? Observation Lounges were designed into the rim of the ship's two hulls, and the Conference Lounge was designed for Command Officers' meetings... all approved by Gene.

These people are more interested in placing their own egotistical brand on something than honor the norm, not to mention understanding the concept of continuity. That's why you have different uniforms, weapons, and communicators in every Trek motion picture. Look at the movie with the Regula space station. Everybody knows it's the Space Office complex turned upside down and they were too cheap/lazy to even change the windows... or they assumed we all were too stupid to notice it. So how does that work? You drop to your knees to look out the damn windows???

That's why spaceships fly like airplanes (except in 'Babylon 5', thank you). That's why the new Godzilla didn't look like it was supposed to. That's why the flying saucer in the upcoming 'Day The Earth Stood Still' will look like a frickin' bubble, and that's why the new Trek movie will look the way it does.

No,... these people are degrading the genre and they deserve NO slack.

Andrew-

OMG, I love you!

That is SO good to hear from an insider!

 

[Forbin]

To the theme of clueless bosses - our head of Engineering is retiring after 30 years. The company president wanted a goodbye poster for him. What did he do? He took the poster we made for the previous president when he was promoted, and marked it up with a few changes. Didn't change the theme or the slogan. So this guy gets a recycled goodbye poster.

Not only that, the president doesn't understand clutter. The previous poster was chock-full of every single project the departing president had anything to do with. I'd given up trying to make it graphically pleasing, because it became impossible. What did the pres do for the Engineering guy's markup? He ADDED almost TWICE as many elements for me to squeeze in.

It looks like shit!! But he loves it, 'cause everything he asked for is there.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Let's hope things get better. I'm still working on my own show, FRONTIER, so maybe that will be the real eye-opener for me.

Andrew-

Your own show? I'm intrigued. Any other details, or is this Majestic 12/Area 51 levels of secrecy?

Check it out.

Looks interesting. Space western with some good 'ole fashioned hard science behind it.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

To the theme of clueless bosses - our head on Engineering is retiring after 30 years. The company president wanted a goodbye poster for him. What did he do? He took the poster we made for the previous president when he was promoted, and marked it up with a few changes. Didn't change the theme or the slogan. So this guy gets a recycled goodbye poster.

Not only that, the president doesn't understand clutter. The previous poster was chock-full of every single project the departing president had anything to do with. I'd given up trying to make it graphically pleasing, because it became impossible. What did the pres do for the Engineering guy's markup? He ADDED almost TWICE as many elements for me to squeeze in.

It looks like shit!! But he loves it, 'cause everything he asked for is there.

It's the same in public education. My high school is on the verge of a palace coup thanks to the cluster-frak of school reform initiatives that are threatening to gut what little classroom effectiveness we had.

 

[TEH BABA]

I was thinking I really love the BSG hanger deck really looks huge Undead One thing i was critical was screwy promotion system trek has. Why the fuck medical officer like Crusher when more qualified engineering officers could have taken over. Also to complete lack of enlisted or warrant officers in early tng. That's taking Utopianism to far you need a nco corp to operate a military.

 

[arch101]

^^^Did I witness above a direct exchange between Mr. Probert and The God Thing? Glad I was here to see this!

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Did I witness above a direct exchange between Mr. Probert and The God Thing? Glad I was here to see this!

That's nothing. If you want to see some really obsequious blubbering on my part for Mr. Probert's work then just take a look at this thread.

TGT

 

[Guartho]

Don't be fooled. They're the same guy.