That got kinda intense there, didn't it?
You were basically verbalising arguments I've had in my own head for many years. I feel like the discussion lost the connection to
Star Trek a couple of times when the subject matter ranged more widely and you got into more general real-world issues. But I guess that's a good thing - that you can get so much to discuss out of only a single episode of the show. I'm just not sure anyone coming in half way through would even realise it was a
Star Trek podcast!
For myself, I'm definitely not religious. I've said before that viewing DS9 and writing my own DS9-related stuff has helped me to at least look at other perspectives than my own. But we all come to this issue through the prism of our own experiences.
For me, I was nominally raised CofE, but only at a very basic level - church was Christmas and Easter only. Even that I refused to do any longer after about 12 or so, because I saw no value or point in it, and to continue to go when I didn't actually believe in any of the stuff they were saying would just be hypocritical. And since then I've lead a pretty much religion-free life, at least day-to-day.
But as I've grown up, I've become more aware of the effect religion has on the wider world, and frankly it's difficult sometimes not to see only the negative. Church of England is generally not a very extreme religion. There's a great Eddie Izzard piece where he points out how it's kind of impossible to be a Church of England fundamentalist ("You
must have tea and cake with the vicar or you
die!"), so I don't feel like I've suffered much there. But looking at the hatred that one sees coming out of some of the larger organised religions - Catholic, Southern Baptist, Mormon, Islam and others - it's kind of tough to remain sanguine.
Given who I am, the prism I'm currently looking at all this through is the equal marriage debate raging across America right now. So many people using religious arguments to justify blatant discrimination against me and my kind, not just in the US but all over the world. And it's the same arguments they used against racial desegregation or women getting the vote.
I try to remember that far from all religious people are hateful of others, that the vast majority are perfectly ordinary, nice, normal people who just have a faith - your Kiras and Bareils and Shakaars. But it's the hateful ones who make all the noise and get all the attention, and they're trying to write their bigotry into law under the guise of "God", when a) the Bible doesn't actually say anything like what they're claiming it does, and b) even if it did, religion has no place in civil law anyway.
This is one of the most hilarious examples I've found -
http://technoccult.net/archives/2009/10/23/why-is-this-anti-gay-leviticus-tattoo-extra-absurd/ It's a tattoo someone got quoting Leviticus' anti-gay chapter to prove just how much they hate the gays... while completely ignoring the fact that Leviticus also bans tattoos. Just goes to show how people utilize religion to justify their own hatred of others, even when it's completely irrational.
You say both sides have their extremists, and I can't deny that. There are raging religion-haters just as much as there are crazy whackjob fundies. I try not to be one of them - I try to remain moderate and rational on my side just as you do on yours. But it's tough sometimes.
You also say that both sides look down on the others and think they're superior, and there I'm not so sure I agree. From my perspective, it looks like the religious people are actively going out of their way to persecute and discriminate against us. Whereas we, on the other hand, would be perfectly content to go about our own business and not bother anybody else if only
they would leave
us alone. But since they refuse to do that, we have to fight back. Maybe that's comparing extremists on their side to moderates on mine, but I feel like there
wouldn't be any extremists on our side if there didn't
need to be to counter the extremists on theirs. Basically, it boils down to "they started it."
If it really is just the loudmouths who are anti-gay and the moderates are actually perfectly fine with it or just don't care one way or the other, then I really wish those moderates would speak up louder and make it clear that the loudmouths don't speak for everyone. That seems to be happening gradually.
Here's another great thread that gives me hope.
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/opin...cle_2da36280-98d9-11e2-ab2e-0019bb2963f4.html Some woman wrote into an online newspaper claiming that "gay marriage threatens my religious freedom." Out of nearly 100 comments, almost every one is telling her how full of crap she is - most in a respectful way, trying to explain how every point she made is incorrect and why. People
are shouting down the fundies. It
is getting better, to coin a phrase.
But it's not until the fundie whackjob types are removed from their undeserved positions of influence that society at large will have more respect for religion in general. I think more people would be open to a spiritual life - perhaps even me - if they didn't find the religious establishment so restrictive and draconian and anti-anything-that-isn't-straight-white-male.
As I say, I recognize that you do not appear to be that kind of person, Matthew, and I am glad for it. This is not a rant against you personally, and I hope you don't take it as such. I'm just trying to explain some of the reasons that I see why people may be against religion, and it's not just over a different worldview, but rather because religion is used against
them.
All of which proves I can go off topic way more than you can.
.
