The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

[C.E. Evans]

Given the visual evidence between the Mk I and Mk II Constitution Class it seems as if they basically gutted the ship all the way down to almost the bare spaceframe. It was hardly a cosmetic change.

You skipped the rest of what I said:

"After the incorporation of the already proven newer systems and hull components..."

Given the extensive nature of the refit, it would appear you have to do double the amount of work that a new build would have. Givven the fact that you first have to take apart the orginal ship.

There seemed to be very little left of the orignal ship, that was visible at least.

We really don't know that at all because components such as the nacelles and support pylons could be standardized parts that could be easily swapped out. The rest could be just modifications to the existing spaceframe to incorporate them.

So is there an original unfit Constitution class vessel in the museum?

All that can be said for certain is that there is a Constitution-class ship in the Museum. Whether she is original or upgraded is unknown.

 

[MacLeod]

Ok, but to put in those newer systems you first have to take out the older ones. For a new build you wouldn't lose time in the construction removing older systems.

R&D has designed newer systems and a way to retrofit them into an existing space frame, so Starfleet decide's to try it out on the first ship to return from Deep Space following these devoplments. The first ship back just happens to be the Enterprise.

Had the Enterprise returned second it might have gone to the Fleet Museum.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Ok, but to put in those newer systems you first have to take out the older ones. For a new build you wouldn't lose time in the construction removing older systems.

I actually don't think that would be much of a problem. The Constitution-class--both original and upgraded versions--are fairly modular designs.

R&D has designed newer systems and a way to retrofit them into an existing space frame, so Starfleet decide's to try it out on the first ship to return from Deep Space following these devoplments. The first ship back just happens to be the Enterprise.

Had the Enterprise returned second it might have gone to the Fleet Museum.

I agree on both counts.

 

[MacLeod]

^so under the point you agree upon had the Enterprise returned second it would have been put into the Fleet Musuem under the configutation it was under Kirk's command. Why would the same not hold true for another one of the Constitution Class under that same configuration.

Therefore Picard could have seen one of the Constiution Class ships under that configuration in the Fleet Musuem.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^so under the point you agree upon had the Enterprise returned second it would have been put into the Fleet Musuem under the configutation it was under Kirk's command. Why would the same not hold true for another one of the Constitution Class under that same configuration.

Only under the idea that Kirk's ship was the most notable of the Constitution-class ships because of his five-year mission.

Otherwise, if the plan was to upgrade the Enterprise and keep her in service, I see no need for any Constitution ship to be placed in the Museum until the last ship was retired from active duty, and that ship would have been the final version of the design.

 

[Timo]

At the end of the day, the fact remains that the bridge of the TOS ship and the bridge of the ST2 one are about as similar as an onion and an oxcart. No amount of "hazy recollection" would make Picard identify Scotty's simulation with a refitted bridge.

A Constitution could have been resting unrefitted in the Fleet Museum since the 2250s for all we know - say, a vessel disabled early on in the lifespan of the class and patched together enough to serve as an attraction. Scotty doesn't comment on whether he's familiar with the museum ship or not; he just wants to know how familiar Picard is with this ship type (the unrefitted one), and accepts Picard's statement that the museum ship helps the 24th century captain a bit in that respect.

Whether Starfleet refitted old Constitutions en masse or not, we don't know, since we don't see ships other than E-nil and E-A (plus a corner of a further vessel at the end of ST4, but that could "in reality" be of just about any class). We're free to speculate that all ships save for a few hopeless cases were refitted and scores also built to the new format (like many fan sources do), or that only two ships were ever refitted, both for purely experimental or otherwise special purposes. Any and all explanations allow for an unrefitted or a refitted specimen to be sent to the Museum, but clearly only one or the other, as per "Relics". And since Picard does recognize Scotty's simulation from visual cues that have absolutely nothing to do with the refit (and no, he can't be doing that on the basis of dedication plaques or graphics or whatnot since those aren't visible to him from where he stands - Scotty blocks the view to the distant, small-print plaque, and the only graphic that could help Picard is on that side of the turbolift alcove that is hidden from him), it seems obvious that an original configuration vessel is stored there.

...Unless Picard utterly failed to recognize the bridge, and merely hazarded a guess, considering what he knew about Scotty.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I see no reason to believe any of that. It might work for you, but it can definitely be looked at differently so the "facts" are subject to debate.

 

[MacLeod]

In TOS we know from a line that there were onlly a dozen or ships of that class. Of which we know for certain one under went a refit and 3 were lost in service. Leaving 8 or so unaccounted for. Sure the Enterprise might have been the most famous ship of that class but Starfleet could have determined that the class as whole from the TOS era had served with distinction and decided to preserve one of the other 8 as it appeared in the TOS era.

Starfleet could simply preserve one of each class of ship in the fleet Museum, sometimes if there are enough differenes between variants of the same class they preserve one of each.

 

[C.E. Evans]

In TOS we know from a line that there were onlly a dozen or ships of that class. Of which we know for certain one under went a refit and 3 were lost in service. Leaving 8 or so unaccounted for. Sure the Enterprise might have been the most famous ship of that class but Starfleet could have determined that the class as whole from the TOS era had served with distinction and decided to preserve one of the other 8 as it appeared in the TOS era.

That just doesn't make any sense to me, I guess. I don't think there was anything special about the original version of the Constitution-class other than Kirk's ship was one during his five-year mission. Sure, we can speculate that every Constitution-class ship was special or noteworthy, but that still wouldn't preclude the ship in the Museum being a later version of the design, though.

 

[MacLeod]

Nor has anything you said precludes it being a pre-refit version.

If another pre-refit version returned home during the refit of Enterprise, why would you start refitting it until the refit of Enterprise proved it could be done and was benefical? It could have been a year or so until the Enterprise refit was complete and the returning ship could have been older than the Enterprise at 25+ years so was nearing the end of it's operational life. So rather than expend resources on something that might not prove benefical the ship was simply decomissioned to the Fleet Museum.

Once the refit process had proven benefical it is possible that pre-refit ships returning after the completion of the Enterprise refit were refitted.

 

[Dukhat]

I see no reason to believe any of that. It might work for you, but it can definitely be looked at differently so the "facts" are subject to debate.

The interesting thing is that the Excelsior's bridge in STIII is a completely different bridge than what we saw in STVI, but it's the exact same ship. The same thing can be said for the Ent-A between STIV and STV. Or the completely different bridges of the Reliant, the Lantree, the Brattain and the Saratoga (Sisko's version), even though outwardly they are all Miranda class ships.

All this goes to show is that just because Scotty asked to see the bridge of the TOS Enterprise, and Picard recognized it as such, doesn't necessarily mean that the exact same inward or outward appearance of the vessel is the same Connie that's in the museum.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Nor has anything you said precludes it being a pre-refit version.

But my point was that it isn't a natural given that the ship in the Museum is a pre-refit version. It could very well have been a case that the ship there was a later version rather than an early version, regardless of a holodeck simulation on the Enterprise-D.

The interesting thing is that the Excelsior's bridge in STIII is a completely different bridge than what we saw in STVI, but it's the exact same ship. The same thing can be said for the Ent-A between STIV and STV. Or the completely different bridges of the Reliant, the Lantree, the Brattain and the Saratoga (Sisko's version), even though outwardly they are all Miranda class ships.

All this goes to show is that just because Scotty asked to see the bridge of the TOS Enterprise, and Picard recognized it as such, doesn't necessarily mean that the exact same inward or outward appearance of the vessel is the same Connie that's in the museum.

That's it in a nutshell, yes.

 

[MacLeod]

And I never said it couldn't have been, a post refit version.

Though IF the Bridge was the same as the one in the fleet museum, given the design differences between the bridges used pre and post, i.e. only one turbolift pre compared against two post, it COULD indicate a pre-refit version.

Without seeing it, we can only guess.

 

[C.E. Evans]

And I never said it couldn't have been, a post refit version.

Which makes arguing it rather odd.

Though IF the Bridge was the same as the one in the fleet museum, given the design differences between the bridges used pre and post, i.e. only one turbolift pre compared against two post, it COULD indicate a pre-refit version.

Without seeing it, we can only guess.

I think the holodeck computer chose a version of the original Enterprise bridge that was most famous historically--during the midst of Kirk's 5-year mission. Otherwise, it could have been any version of that bridge from as early when Pike was in command or as late as the V'Ger Incident, IMO.

 

[Ronald Held]

Did the NCC-1700 ever see service, and could that be in the museum?

 

[C.E. Evans]

There is very little information about NCC-1700 except that she was a Constitution-class starship. She's presumably the Constitution, but has never been referred to as such onscreen.

 

[Cadet49]

I always liked to think that maybe the Constitution class Yorktown was retired in the late 2270s because of some structural or technological problem that couldn't be solved at the time, and the historic name was transferred to another vessel, perhaps one of the new Constellation-class vessels. However, by the mid 2280s, Starfleet engineering solved the problem that plagued the Constitution-class vessel, but because the name Yorktown had already been given to a different vessel a few years earlier, and because of Kirk's actions to save Earth, the decision was made to re-name the original Yorktown as the "Enterprise-A". That could explain the name change ...

 

[Dukhat]

^Or it could just have been a brand-new ship, which as I said was heavily implied if not downright stated in STV.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
Even a renamed older ship would be considered a brand-new Enterprise, so it could work that way too.

 

[CoveTom]

FWIW, Scotty's line as he's making a log entry near the beginning of the film is, "I think this new ship was put together by monkeys." Now, the question is whether or not he is speaking literally about it being a new ship or whether he is speaking simply that it is their new Enterprise. But it's another piece of the puzzle.