The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

[Timo]

...We might also figure in that the Khitomer truce would give Starfleet the opportunity to stop doing stopgap purchases and life-extending refits and other such nonsense, and simply start mass-producing all-new, superior ships.

This because a) there would be funds freed when there was no (or reduced) need to stay on constant guard against the Klingons, and b) it would be acceptable to have a short, deep dip in Starfleet strength, due to the complete remaking of the fleet, as long as the Klingons were down for the count.

Starfleet couldn't know how long the truce would last. But for a few years at least, they could reasonably well trust that the only maneuver the weakened Klingons were capable of would be a desperate suicide sally to save the Empire - and that the events of ST6 had made that sort of an attempt very unlikely.

So, bye bye, Constellation class and other attempts at getting at least some mileage out of the LN-64 engines and other such outdated technology (Rick S did say that only a handful of those weird contraptions were built). Bye bye, old Constitutions. Bye bye, experiments at renovating or reinventing the Constitutions. Welcome, all sorts of new ideas - but while those are being tested, welcome, standardization on a limited number of the most modern designs in service.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

If the refit Enterprise was a testbed for new technologies, why not have the same Command crew on the Enterprise-A(another testbed)?

 

[BillJ]

That sounds similar to the Mr Scotts Guide where the name Ti-Ho came from. In the book the ship which was renamed Enterprise was a test bed for a Transwarp Drive system along side the Excelsior, the explanation being two competing companies were working on the project one of which was the manufacturer of the Constitution nacelles.

I can buy the idea that this could be a new ship built to test new technology in a proven space frame before being installed in newer classes, whether that include a Transwarp or a new Warp Drive system. That could attribute to some of the issues she had leading into STV.

It does come from Mr. Scott's Guide. I mentioned it earlier in the thread.

I really think the Mr. Scott explanation is the best one and splits the difference between whether she's an old or new vessel. She's not brand spanking new, fresh off of the assembly line but neither is she a forty year old hand me down.

 

[Shane Houston]

Okay after reading all six pages I think I have an alternate idea. Here's a crazy thought...what if the Enterprise-A was always called the Enterprise-A from the time her keel was laid? The events in Treks II and III take place pretty quickly. But in 2 the 1701 was regulated to a training ship with Spock in command. Who's to say that because of her history...a successful five year mission...saving Earth from VGer...that there wasn't already plans on honoring the Enterprise crew with another Constitution class refit.

Admiral Morrow states that all crewmembers will be given the highest commendation of the Federation in the beginning of Star Trek III. That took place in 2285. I'm no starship expert but if it takes a couple of years to build a brand new ship then it's feasible that while Spock commanded the original as a training ship, the new ship was already under construction and once the E-A was finished it was Starfleet's plan all along to decommission the original and launch the new Enterprise. But because of the unexpected pounding the old ship took, having to mothball her earlier than expected, and them needing Scotty on Excelsior, and the fact the crew stole the old girl that Starfleet didn't get a chance to inaugurate the new E-A the way they wanted or planned because of the events of Treks 2 and 3.

I mean after all the Enterprise has more than 40 years of service under multiple captains. I don't think the Enterprise-A was named in honor of Kirk and crew at all. I believe that it was named for the Enterprise herself and all that she had represented to the Federation. She represented an ideal, especially if you include the NX-01 as part of the name's history.

 

[Timo]

I think I just have a fundamental problem with replacing an outdated ship with another ship of identical design. That doesn't happen much in the real world.

I mean, when a military truck grows old, it may well get replaced by another of the same, thirty-year-old design, only this one is fresh off the still-open production lines. But ships are much more expensive and not really produced on "lines": the tooling is built for a specific batch and then scrapped, there is no spares or surplus production as such... And there are no advantages to be gained from standardization anyway. The last ship in a batch is likely to feature all sorts of improvements over the first - but if more ships are needed, there's no incentive for going back to the original design if this can be avoided.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shane Houston]

That's true in the real world. But think back to Kirk's words when he sees Excelsior. He called it The Great Experiment. At that point in 2285 I don't think that Starfleet would assume that they would mass produce the Excelsior class. And thinking of the Constitution Refit design as seperate from the original, then we are only talking about 10 to 15 year old design. Decker called the refit an almost totally new Enterprise. It's illogical to assume that the actual design itself was old or a failure at the time the Enterprise-A was launched. I don't like the Yorktown idea because we already saw a commander and assuming he had a crew in command of the ship during the Probe crisis. What? Did that commander get thrown off his own ship just to make Kirk happy? I think it was just Roddenberry's way of trying to assert some control over the movie franchise. And while I liked Mister Scott's guide at the time it came out the whole TiHo thing was just silly.

But that's the great thing about Trek. I think that the Enterprise-A being the Enterprise-A is more fitting than other opinions. But we can all still dream our own continuity at times like this in our imaginations.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't like the Yorktown idea because we already saw a commander and assuming he had a crew in command of the ship during the Probe crisis. What? Did that commander get thrown off his own ship just to make Kirk happy?

For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name. In that sense, what Kirk got was a hand-me-down ship renamed Enterprise as a PR move to the Federation public and the rest of the Galaxy at large.

 

[Shane Houston]

Only one problem with that. There was only one Excelsior class ship at the time of Star Trek 4. And even it would be refitted somewhat between it's going from NX-2000 to NCC-2000. Starfleet doesn't have to worry about PR in my opinion. Because if they were going to really do that then it would be more of an honor of having a brand new ship named Enterprise than simply, as you called it, slapping the most famous name in the fleet on a hand me down.

 

[BillJ]

For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name.

Doesn't really make a lot of sense based on the reaction of Kirk's senior staff upon seeing it. If they were already in production there would be nothing special about that ship to elicit that response. Prior to The Wrath of Khan they all seemed to be stationed on or near Earth except for Chekov.

The whole project was probably top-secret until Starfleet needed an actual port for the trial runs.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Only one problem with that. There was only one Excelsior class ship at the time of Star Trek 4.

Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.

And even it would be refitted somewhat between it's going from NX-2000 to NCC-2000.

As far as we know, Excelsior's registry was changed shortly after Star Trek IV after a second Excelsior-class ship entered service.

Starfleet doesn't have to worry about PR in my opinion. Because if they were going to really do that then it would be more of an honor of having a brand new ship named Enterprise than simply, as you called it, slapping the most famous name in the fleet on a hand me down.

I disagree. Designating another Constitution-class ship as the Enterprise and putting Kirk in command was a nice PR move (as well as a means of honoring the ship). The true origins of the ship as an earlier vessel would be irrelevant to the public.

 

[C.E. Evans]

For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name.

Doesn't really make a lot of sense based on the reaction of Kirk's senior staff upon seeing it. If they were already in production there would be nothing special about that ship to elicit that response.

I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.

The whole project was probably top-secret until Starfleet needed an actual port for the trial runs.

I doubt that, given how much Sulu and Kirk knew about it. It could simply have been built at another shipyard and then sent to Spacedock for her trial runs. Star Trek III was the first time Kirk and the gang finally saw her.

 

[BillJ]

Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.

So Starfleet is building multiple Excelsior-class starships based on a technology that hasn't been proven in the field? I really don't think that's happening. They were just beginning trial runs in Star Trek III and we have no idea how much the tampering done by Scott set the project back. Star Trek IV takes place three-months after The Search for Spock and the ship is still sitting in Spacedock.

There is a huge gap in the history of the ship between 2286-90. In 2293, Sulu states they've completed a three-year survey mission and in The Undiscovered Country the Excelsior is using traditional warp drive by all accounts I've seen. She may have been spaceworthy prior to 2290, but I imagine quite a bit of time was spent swapping out transwarp drive for traditional equipment which also had to be tested in the new design.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.

So Starfleet is building multiple Excelsior-class starships based on a technology that hasn't been proven in the field?

That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.

Really, by the time a prototype completes her shakedown and enters actual service, mass production can begin at any time. NX-01 aside, the NX-designation for a prototype is really only necessary for a short period of time, IMO, and changing it to NCC is probably more an instance of doing it at a convenient time.

 

[BillJ]

I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.

But these were people from throughout the Federation, at the time we know of only three Galaxy-class starships in service. Kirk and company were actually stationed on or around Earth.

I doubt that, given how much Sulu and Kirk knew about it. It could simply have been built at another shipyard and then sent to Spacedock for her trial runs. Star Trek III was the first time Kirk and the gang finally saw her.

Kirk is the Chief of Starfleet Operations and calls the vessel "The Great Experiment", so I doubt this is his first time seeing the vessel. He even knows that it is ready for trial runs:

My friends, the great experiment. The Excelsior, ready for trial runs.

Sulu sounds like someone who has heard rumors but nothing confirmed:

She's supposed to have transwarp drive.

 

[BillJ]

That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.

And all were built with conventional warp theory in mind. Transwarp is suppose to be the next step, but is untried in the field.

 

[Shane Houston]

The structure of the Excelsior also changed along with it's registry number. If there were already more than one of her then why would Kirk refer to the ship as an experiment? And I have to disagree with the notion that Starfleet transferred the command crew off a ship to simply have better PR. Because that would be assuming that the Yorktown itself never did anything to garner the attention of people in the Federation. Our problem is that at that point we've seen only three designs in the motion picture era: Connie Refit, Miranda, Excelsior prototype, Excelsior production model and the Excelsior refit.

In 2293 when the Enterprise-B was launched that's only 7 years from NX-2000 to the Enterprise-B. And since the design of the E-B was so different than NCC-2000 you have to wonder, at that point and not knowing they would be the work horse of TNG, if there would really be that many Excelsior class ships around. And Excelsior herself was still in drydock in 2287, two years after it's first appearance. So while there may have been more on the planning boards or the beginning stages of being built there would be no Excelsior class Yorktown in 2286 to place old Yorktown's captain on.

As far as the public not caring about a hand me down being used for the name Enterprise I bet that there are those in Starfleet that would. Naval officers of our time are a very proud group in regards to the ships they serve. Let the current aircraft carrier USS Enterprise retire and then the navy slap the name on a tug boat and you betcha the public would care. I see the 23rd century being no different.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.

But these were people from throughout the Federation, at the time we know of only three Galaxy-class starships in service. Kirk and company were actually stationed on or around Earth.

But where they stationed at the shipyard where Excelsior was built? If not, then it's the first time they ever saw the vessel in person.

Kirk is the Chief of Starfleet Operations and calls the vessel "The Great Experiment", so I doubt this is his first time seeing the vessel.

A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.

And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.

Sulu sounds like someone who has heard rumors but nothing confirmed

Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.

 

[C.E. Evans]

That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.

And all were built with conventional warp theory in mind. Transwarp is suppose to be the next step, but is untried in the field.

But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.

As far as the public not caring about a hand me down being used for the name Enterprise I bet that there are those in Starfleet that would.

The more important thing would be that the Enterprise lived on. At the time, it was recognizable to the Federation public and the Galaxy at large as a Constitution-class, so it would be a symbolic act.

 

[BillJ]

A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.

The key word in what we're debating here is "experiment".

And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.

McCOY: Admiral? Wouldn't it be easier to just put an experienced crew back on the ship?
KIRK: Galloping about the cosmos is a game for the young, Doctor.

I would bet the intent is that Kirk is still Chief of Operations, he has knowledge and access to Project Genesis and seems to be in the know about the development and timetable for the Excelsior-class. At this point, he is probably serving as a command mentor to Spock.

Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.

Which supports it being one of a kind.

 

[BillJ]

But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.

Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?