The Old Ones in the Trekverse

[QCzar]

In the mythologies of many science fiction series there are often civilizations that long predate modern ones and yet influence them, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. In Stargate there were the Ancients, Nox, Asgard, Ori etc. Battlestar Galactica (both) had Kobol and ancient Cylons. In Babylon 5, there were the First Ones (including the Shadows) and the Vorlons. Both Firefly and Farscape can be said to have them. In many comics there are loads of ancients in a multitude of varieties (gods, aliens, demons or ancient versions of modern characters). In most modern space opera this trope seems indispensable.

Which races in the Star Trek universe do you consider to be the definitive ancients?

Automatically, one thinks of the Iconians, who thanks to their gateways have probably left their mark clear cross the galaxy. But there must be others.

And when one looks at all this conceptually, does the Trekverse even really have "old ones" in the sense of the other mentioned series?

 

[SG-17]

Sargon's race, the Preservers, and the First Ones.

 

[sbk1234]

The Q seems to have had some influence.

 

[Anwar]

The Progenitors/Preservers.

 

[QCzar]

The Q seems to have had some influence.

Depends on how you define the Q. If they're just another bunch of aliens, then certainly they are orders of magnitude more influential in history than any other race. Their civil war probably spanned billions of galaxies, across billions of years, past, present and future.

But that example hints at why I think of them another way. The Q have always been presented more or less as a universal constant. More akin to angels or demons or even wizards, than any super-advanced aliens (like the Preservers). As if they were a manifestation or avatars of something...else. Something, as they are fond of saying, beyond the comprehension of at least known Federation science.

To then say that they are influential is like saying that hurricanes and supernovae are influential or that God is influential. If the Q were presented as anything other than all powerful and all knowing then that idea may hold. But otherwise, they are Trek's ultimate expression of "magic".

There's also the fact that very little that we have seen the Q do is indicative of the Q as a specific influence. They tend to, very often, appropriate natural phenomenon or deception when carrying out their acts, which disguises whatever influence they actually had.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Ancient Humanoids

 

[Timo]

The only claim to fame the Preservers seem to have is kidnapping a bunch of Americans and placing them on a terraformed planet under asteroid bombardment, only a couple of hundred years before humans first ventured to the stars. They don't sound like Old Ones to me... More like the Briori of "The 37s" or the Skats of "North Star".

Then again, give any species enough time, and it will probably have an impact on the galaxy. That's a typical humanoid trait, leaving a mark in history. Give them more time, and they will either have more influence, or disappear and have their mark disappear as well, under the marks of newer or greater species. That IMHO should be the criterion by which we can identify Old Ones: that they have stood the test of time.

The ancient humanoids of "The Chase" should fit the bill, as should the less ancient Iconians of "Contagion"/"To the Death" and perhaps the T'Kon of "The Last Outpost" (although we don't know the nature of the mark the T'Kon left, and not even the noted archaeologist Picard seems to be familiar with them at first!). Perhaps the Founders as well, after a fashion: they were mere legend until very recently, yet had a definite influence on our galaxy. The oldies-but-goldies from "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" or "I, Mudd" had a much more localized impact.

Sargon's folks did their share of transplanting species, but we don't know if that was significant or not; even the Federation is already doing some of that stuff. Or more exactly, even private individuals in the UFP ("Homeward"). So it's not that big a deal.

The Waadwaur left a rather significant transportation network behind before mostly perishing, thus essentially becoming Iconians Lite. The Hirogen might also count, as their galactic communication network seems like ancient work and largely unrelated to the current Hirogen civilization.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

They were those funky pipe cleaner aliens from "Catspaw".

 

[iguana_tonante]

Depends on how you define the Q. If they're just another bunch of aliens, then certainly they are orders of magnitude more influential in history than any other race. Their civil war probably spanned billions of galaxies, across billions of years, past, present and future.

Personally, I always had the nagging sensation that Q's representation of his own powers was somehow exaggerated.

Sure, they are advanced and powerful, but actually spanning the entire universe, from start to finish? I somehow doubt it.

And it would fit with Q's (and Qs') ego. If you were powerful, wouldn't you tell inferior life-forms that you are omnipotent, even if just for shit and giggles?

 

[WillsBabe]

And when one looks at all this conceptually, does the Trekverse even really have "old ones" in the sense of the other mentioned series?

My feeling is that it doesn't. I say this because Star Trek generally seems to consider itself a secular series. The idea or trope of the old ones seem to bring with it some ancient wisdom, maybe some dimension of a benevolent being or guiding light. There doesn't seem to be any of this much in Trek. There are old races that have an occassional nod to them, but for me there seems to be little consieration to them as a revered older race with wisdom attached. (Acually I don't think I've explained that very well, hope it makes some sense.)

 

[Timo]

I think I get the gist. Trek occasionally mentions old gods that influenced mankind in a benevolent way (Apollo, Plato's stepchildren), but the Trek message is that mankind has outgrown the need for such influences and is now at least as divine as its former father figures, and perhaps more so.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[QCzar]

Personally, I always had the nagging sensation that Q's representation of his own powers was somehow exaggerated.

Sure, they are advanced and powerful, but actually spanning the entire universe, from start to finish? I somehow doubt it.

And it would fit with Q's (and Qs') ego. If you were powerful, wouldn't you tell inferior life-forms that you are omnipotent, even if just for shit and giggles?

You know, I've never actually thought of it that way. It does gel with what we know of their personalities. But I'm not so sure it holds up under scrutiny. If you're sufficiently advanced to be able to do the things Q really can do, what point would their be in lying about it?

Races like Trek's Q or Dr Who's Timelords have always kind of reminded me of Hellenistic gods, in the sense that they are often presented as anything but morally infallible, yet their powers are very much real. Thus, it is the very fact that they have so much power that makes their arrogance so fatal. If it turns out the Q are just faking it, then the moral of their story in Trekdom (that "absolute power corrupts absolutely") ceases to have any relevance and they become just another interesting-as-paint-drying "advanced" race.

And one last thing. From what we now know of the scope of our universe and the basic truths of quantum mechanics, that it's big but not infinite and, given unimaginable amounts of power, that it can be traversed (in time and space), it hardly seems that a race with abilities or even technology as advanced as the Q couldn't be in all places at all times if they wanted to.

And when one looks at all this conceptually, does the Trekverse even really have "old ones" in the sense of the other mentioned series?

My feeling is that it doesn't. I say this because Star Trek generally seems to consider itself a secular series. The idea or trope of the old ones seem to bring with it some ancient wisdom, maybe some dimension of a benevolent being or guiding light. There doesn't seem to be any of this much in Trek. There are old races that have an occassional nod to them, but for me there seems to be little consieration to them as a revered older race with wisdom attached. (Acually I don't think I've explained that very well, hope it makes some sense.)

You've explained it well enough. And you're right, it never actually feels like there are any "legends" in the Trekverse, in the sense that you get from races like the Ancients in Stargate or the Vorlons (et.al) in Babylon 5. In Trek, outside of one's own history, they seem to be regarded as little more than archaeological curiosities, for the most part. Although, we must take into account that (in the case of Starfleet) we most often see their world from the perspective of "the detached scientist" and that must influence how such beings are portrayed.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You know, I've never actually thought of it that way. It does gel with what we know of their personalities. But I'm not so sure it holds up under scrutiny. If you're sufficiently advanced to be able to do the things Q really can do, what point would their be in lying about it?

I'm not sure it would hold under scrutiny either. As I said, it was more a sensation than anything. I never devoted too much research to verify it given the evidences on screen. As for the point for lying, usually the only one needed is "why not?", but that could be the cynic in me speaking.

Races like Trek's Q or Dr Who's Timelords have always kind of reminded me of Hellenistic gods, in the sense that they are often presented as anything but morally infallible, yet their powers are very much real. Thus, it is the very fact that they have so much power that makes their arrogance so fatal. If it turns out the Q are just faking it, then the moral of their story in Trekdom (that "absolute power corrupts absolutely") ceases to have any relevance and they become just another interesting-as-paint-drying "advanced" race.

Very apt simile. But it would hold true even if the Qs were not omnipotent, just very powerful. Absolute power can mean just unmatched power: it doesn't need to be literal for the moral of the story to be true.

And one last thing. From what we now know of the scope of our universe and the basic truths of quantum mechanics, that it's big but not infinite and, given unimaginable amounts of power, that it can be traversed (in time and space), it hardly seems that a race with abilities or even technology as advanced as the Q couldn't be in all places at all times if they wanted to.

I agree with your premise. The universe can be finite even without having any physical boundary (just as you can walk indefinitively over the surface of a sphere witout ever finding a "limit"). I just think having such power to walk through it, past and future, as we take a stroll in the park would affect them in such ways we could hardly imagine, well beyond the scope we have seen in Star Trek (which is, having a more or less human-like psyche). I guess it has much more to do with the limits of my imagination than with the limits of the Qs.

 

[Valin]

They were those funky pipe cleaner aliens from "Catspaw".

Robert Bloch, the writer of "Catspaw" and "What Are Little girl's Made Of" was part of the Lovecraft circle--writers of the pulp era who wrote stories that were part of HPL's so-called "Cthulhu Mythos." Bloch put references to Lovecraft's "Old Ones" in his Trek episodes.

 

[QCzar]

I agree with your premise. The universe can be finite even without having any physical boundary (just as you can walk indefinitively over the surface of a sphere witout ever finding a "limit"). I just think having such power to walk through it, past and future, as we take a stroll in the park would affect them in such ways we could hardly imagine, well beyond the scope we have seen in Star Trek (which is, having a more or less human-like psyche). I guess it has much more to do with the limits of my imagination than with the limits of the Qs.

Well, for one thing, we don't know if it's as easy for them as "a stroll in the park", do we?

I've always played on one of Q's favorite chides against humanity when he discusses his people or his powers: That it is simply beyond human comprehension. Now for many people this line is seen as a cop out. As a handy way of allowing the Q to seem magical without trying to effect a scientific explanation. In Trek's largely secular, rational worldview, this seems an odd contradiction.

But there's a good chance they (the Q) are right. For instance, to say that the Q possessing human-like behavior is evidence of their limited behavioral (and thus overall) advancement is to suggest that such human characteristics are not infinitely transferable or should somehow evolve away once a species reaches an X point. But where would that point be? How would we know it or know of it in another, far more advanced intelligence? And why would it necessarily need to evolve away in the first place?

Also since we don't know how the Q evolved or what they evolved from, it's impossible to say what kind of psyche they really have. The Continuum may not have a "psyche" at all and it may be just another manifestation, like when Q takes human form.

 

[Captain MAJ]

The Tkon.