Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
If he committed atrocities, how would he NOT be a monster?
If he committed atrocities, how would he NOT be a monster?
The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor....
- Thread starter Emperor-Tiberius
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Yeah, that's the way I look at it.
I was saddened when I heard that Eccleston wouldn't be back (but that was his choice, not Moffat's) and then I was puzzled and annoyed when I heard that they weren't using McGann instead. But it does seem quite clear that there is a reason for using the Hurt Doctor as oppose to any other from 1-8, that he has a role and a function that they can't serve. And this guilty secret, whatever it is, is the reason.
I think it's a safe bet that had we suddenly discovered that McGann's Doctor had done something terrible and forfeited the name 'Doctor', there would be apoplexy among a lot of fandom, even those who haven't enjoyed the audio dramas involving that character and actor.
Yeah, that's the way I look at it.
I was saddened when I heard that Eccleston wouldn't be back (but that was his choice, not Moffat's) and then I was puzzled and annoyed when I heard that they weren't using McGann instead. But it does seem quite clear that there is a reason for using the Hurt Doctor as oppose to any other from 1-8, that he has a role and a function that they can't serve. And this guilty secret, whatever it is, is the reason.
I think it's a safe bet that had we suddenly discovered that McGann's Doctor had done something terrible and forfeited the name 'Doctor', there would be apoplexy among a lot of fandom, even those who haven't enjoyed the audio dramas involving that character and actor.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war because:
- We have already covered that with the End of Time.
- Both the Daleks and the Time Lords were 'bad' and thus are not getting any sympathy from fans when they died.
- The Daleks have come back and the Time Lord can (and almost have) come back to, so therefor there is no real finality in there destruction.
- We have had years of the dealing with the Doctors 'Guilt' already.
The Doctors crime will involve the death of innocents. Perhaps during the Time War the Doctor had to commit genocide of an entire population of innocent beings in order to save the universe. It will be more something on these lines and not ending the Time War.
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war because:
- We have already covered that with the End of Time.
- Both the Daleks and the Time Lords were 'bad' and thus are not getting any sympathy from fans when they died.
- The Daleks have come back and the Time Lord can (and almost have) come back to, so therefor there is no real finality in there destruction.
- We have had years of the dealing with the Doctors 'Guilt' already.
The Doctors crime will involve the death of innocents. Perhaps during the Time War the Doctor had to commit genocide of an entire population of innocent beings in order to save the universe. It will be more something on these lines and not ending the Time War.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
That's what I'm thinking too. It has to be the killing of innocents for the greater good. Like killing a single star whale to save millions of humans. Like Sisko getting people murdered in order to put an end to the Dominion War.
That's what I'm thinking too. It has to be the killing of innocents for the greater good. Like killing a single star whale to save millions of humans. Like Sisko getting people murdered in order to put an end to the Dominion War.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
I have to agree with this, too. The Doctor owns what he did to end the Time War. It's something that is never very far from his mind.
But what the John Hurt incarnation did is something too horrendous for the subsequent incarnations to accept, or even think of forgiving, no matter how necessary it might have been at the time.
I have to agree with this, too. The Doctor owns what he did to end the Time War. It's something that is never very far from his mind.
But what the John Hurt incarnation did is something too horrendous for the subsequent incarnations to accept, or even think of forgiving, no matter how necessary it might have been at the time.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Half of me agrees with that, too. but, the other half wonders, what exactly are they willing to pull out here for HurtDoctor's unforgivable crime? Regardless of wether he is disowned by his future selves, it's still The Doctor this crime is being hung on. How damaged are they really willing to make the character? how much worse can they actually go then his actions in The Time War, in a Children's show (Family show, if you prefer, but, nonetheless catering to children in many ways) with a Childrens' Hero that has been an Icon for 50 years?
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Sudden random thought: Perhaps he pulled a Captain Jack and killed one of his kin, or more specifically, Susan, for a greater cause? Not that I want that, but there it is. Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.
What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?
Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.
Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.
For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.
The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.
What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?
Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.
Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.
For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.
The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
So, are you suggesting he's Olivander, or that he took over after Olivander got snatched?
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
This may be true, but Moffat has been dropping hints in Season 7 about the Time War so it seems plausible that it is in relationship to that.
RTD had indicated somewhere that the Time War started in 'Genesis of the Daleks', but what if Hurts' Doctor started the main Time War somehow, and thus caused billions to die. We all know he stopped it (and maybe he had a deeper unknown obligation for stopping it than what is mentioned in the EoT), but could the Doctor be responsible for directly starting it?? Maybe he gave the Daleks something that allowed them to challenge the Time Lords and be a big threat to them in order to save innocent lives, not thinking of what could possibly happen later (Time War).
This may be true, but Moffat has been dropping hints in Season 7 about the Time War so it seems plausible that it is in relationship to that.
RTD had indicated somewhere that the Time War started in 'Genesis of the Daleks', but what if Hurts' Doctor started the main Time War somehow, and thus caused billions to die. We all know he stopped it (and maybe he had a deeper unknown obligation for stopping it than what is mentioned in the EoT), but could the Doctor be responsible for directly starting it?? Maybe he gave the Daleks something that allowed them to challenge the Time Lords and be a big threat to them in order to save innocent lives, not thinking of what could possibly happen later (Time War).
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Here is a thought -- maybe the Hurt Doctor's crime was resurrecting Rassilon? This would fit -- All the NuDoctors have owned up to ending the time war. However in EOT, Tennant's Doctor said that the Time Lords have become ruthless and power hungry (or something to the effect). Maybe the trigger for their fall was bringing back Rassilon. Hurt could have brought him back, sacrificing a regeneration in the process. This would allow Eccleston's doctor to end the time war. The "shame" comes not from the act of genocide of the daleks and already fallen timelords -- an act which likely had no possible recourse. Rather shame is from the knowingly and actively introducing a corrupting influence into Time Lord society, causing their fall.
In the course of the program, the Doctor has reluctantly killed and allowed others to die. He has even caused many others to die through his actions, inactions, errors. The doctor fights EVIL not DEATH. Everywhere he goes, he opposes tyranny, oppression and corruption.
How often do we see the Doctor take a deliberate stand FOR the establishment. FOR the oppressors? In Logopolis, we saw a good chunk of the universe be destroyed because he made a mistake and led the Master to Logopolis. By now, collateral damage is old hat to the Doctor.
Of course, this is only speculation, and we simply do not know. They may avoid the Time War altogether.
Here is a thought -- maybe the Hurt Doctor's crime was resurrecting Rassilon? This would fit -- All the NuDoctors have owned up to ending the time war. However in EOT, Tennant's Doctor said that the Time Lords have become ruthless and power hungry (or something to the effect). Maybe the trigger for their fall was bringing back Rassilon. Hurt could have brought him back, sacrificing a regeneration in the process. This would allow Eccleston's doctor to end the time war. The "shame" comes not from the act of genocide of the daleks and already fallen timelords -- an act which likely had no possible recourse. Rather shame is from the knowingly and actively introducing a corrupting influence into Time Lord society, causing their fall.
In the course of the program, the Doctor has reluctantly killed and allowed others to die. He has even caused many others to die through his actions, inactions, errors. The doctor fights EVIL not DEATH. Everywhere he goes, he opposes tyranny, oppression and corruption.
How often do we see the Doctor take a deliberate stand FOR the establishment. FOR the oppressors? In Logopolis, we saw a good chunk of the universe be destroyed because he made a mistake and led the Master to Logopolis. By now, collateral damage is old hat to the Doctor.
Of course, this is only speculation, and we simply do not know. They may avoid the Time War altogether.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
^I would find that hard to reconcile with The End of Time. The Tenth Doctor didn't seem to show any particular personal guilt or remorse at Rassilon's presence.
^I would find that hard to reconcile with The End of Time. The Tenth Doctor didn't seem to show any particular personal guilt or remorse at Rassilon's presence.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
This is true. However, the Doctor had his hands full with either stopping the Master and ending the Time Lords a 2nd time -- it isn't too much of a stretch that he wouldn't have much opportunity to react or espouse on the nature of Rassilon. Plus, the Doctor already knew about Rassilon. It was the (possible) return of the Time Lords, not the sight of Rassilon, that was the shock.
In reality it is likely they hadn't conceived of the Hurt Doctor concept (or if they had, they hadn't fleshed out the details). Plus, the Doctor had earlier made such a point of refusing Wilf's gun "I never would", the dramatic impetus was to show how corrupt and dangerous the Time Lords were to make the Doctor take arms when he wouldn't do so to stop the Master and save Earth. Introducing guilt over bringing back Rassilon would have worked against the scene.
I am really excited to see how this actually plays out in November. It is interesting to speculate. This makes me remember all the theories that came out after Back to the Future II to figure out how Marty would get back to save Doc.
This is true. However, the Doctor had his hands full with either stopping the Master and ending the Time Lords a 2nd time -- it isn't too much of a stretch that he wouldn't have much opportunity to react or espouse on the nature of Rassilon. Plus, the Doctor already knew about Rassilon. It was the (possible) return of the Time Lords, not the sight of Rassilon, that was the shock.
In reality it is likely they hadn't conceived of the Hurt Doctor concept (or if they had, they hadn't fleshed out the details). Plus, the Doctor had earlier made such a point of refusing Wilf's gun "I never would", the dramatic impetus was to show how corrupt and dangerous the Time Lords were to make the Doctor take arms when he wouldn't do so to stop the Master and save Earth. Introducing guilt over bringing back Rassilon would have worked against the scene.
I am really excited to see how this actually plays out in November. It is interesting to speculate. This makes me remember all the theories that came out after Back to the Future II to figure out how Marty would get back to save Doc.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
I think we might be overthinking things a little. Maybe it's just as simple as Hurt's Doctor simply worked with the Time Lords willingly when the Time War got serious. Even though it was clear to him the Time Lords were douchebags and were committing horrible atrocities supposedly for the greater good he went along with it anyway and even joining in and doing a few terrible things himself. In fact, he may even have known stopping the Time Lords would end the war sooner, but rationalized to himself the Daleks would still need to be defeated and continued working with the Time Lords, believing this to be the only way. It wouldn't have been until he regenerated and became Eccleston that the Doctor learned the error of his ways, and set out to end the war by neutralizing both the Time Lords and Daleks. Feeling shamed that such an idea didn't come to him sooner, the Doctor decides the Hurt incarnation to not truly be the Doctor since be behaved in such a non-Doctor manner.
I think we might be overthinking things a little. Maybe it's just as simple as Hurt's Doctor simply worked with the Time Lords willingly when the Time War got serious. Even though it was clear to him the Time Lords were douchebags and were committing horrible atrocities supposedly for the greater good he went along with it anyway and even joining in and doing a few terrible things himself. In fact, he may even have known stopping the Time Lords would end the war sooner, but rationalized to himself the Daleks would still need to be defeated and continued working with the Time Lords, believing this to be the only way. It wouldn't have been until he regenerated and became Eccleston that the Doctor learned the error of his ways, and set out to end the war by neutralizing both the Time Lords and Daleks. Feeling shamed that such an idea didn't come to him sooner, the Doctor decides the Hurt incarnation to not truly be the Doctor since be behaved in such a non-Doctor manner.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
Maybe using the "The Moment" wasn't the big crime. Maybe he did something that unleashed something worse on the stragglers of the Time War--the peace of a gun. Hell, maybe he killed ever Tardis but his own.
Maybe using the "The Moment" wasn't the big crime. Maybe he did something that unleashed something worse on the stragglers of the Time War--the peace of a gun. Hell, maybe he killed ever Tardis but his own.
Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.
This. Moffatt's not exactly subtle in these matters. I also think it makes sense that it would have been Eccleston's Ninth who had to set it right. Eccleston's performance dripped of thinly-masked regret and guilt.
This. Moffatt's not exactly subtle in these matters. I also think it makes sense that it would have been Eccleston's Ninth who had to set it right. Eccleston's performance dripped of thinly-masked regret and guilt.
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