The Oberth-class in ENT, TOS, and VAN
- Thread starter MatthiasRussell
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The Romulans (22nd and 24th centuries), Cardassians, Tzenkethi, Borg, Federation-Klingon war (23rd and 24th centuries), the Dominion War. There were a number of skirmishes and wars. Your argument doesn't hold water.
The argument against the Oberth being two hundred years old appeared dependant on the fact that there was no on screen canonical evidence of other spaceframes being used when they were two hundred years old - but when evidence (on-screen and, presumably therefore canonical, no less) is presented showing spaceframes in use of two hundred plus years old, it's thrown out.
But that Starfleet was probably in the midst of a long protracted war requiring them to use every available asset. The Starfleet of the 22nd/23rd/24th century era weren't in the same position.
The Romulans (22nd and 24th centuries), Cardassians, Tzenkethi, Borg, Federation-Klingon war (23rd and 24th centuries), the Dominion War. There were a number of skirmishes and wars. Your argument doesn't hold water.The argument against the Oberth being two hundred years old appeared dependant on the fact that there was no on screen canonical evidence of other spaceframes being used when they were two hundred years old - but when evidence (on-screen and, presumably therefore canonical, no less) is presented showing spaceframes in use of two hundred plus years old, it's thrown out.
But that Starfleet was probably in the midst of a long protracted war requiring them to use every available asset. The Starfleet of the 22nd/23rd/24th century era weren't in the same position.
Skirmishes and wars are two completely different things and what was going on with the Sphere Builders in the 26th century was entirely different from the previous two. They were attempting to rewrite the galaxy in their image.
If there's any event you going to pull out all the stops for it is when someone's attempting to rewrite you environment.
The fact is that the vast majority of appearances of the Oberth class have been scientific in nature. Only twice have we seen Oberths in combat, Emissary and FC. Given the neccessarily modular nature of the Oberths (if my hypothesis is taken), then it would be easy enough to take the lower pod and fill it with weapons. Bear in mind that both times this was done was in response to the Borg - so it seems likely that it was an act of desparation.
Given that there were many times we could have seen the Oberths in combat if that really was part of their mission profile (all the big battle scenes in DS9) and we never saw it, I'd say it's safe to say that the Oberths fighting the Borg were exceptions. And apart from those two times, we never saw Oberths doing ANYTHING other than research.
Mission profiles have nothing to do with it? So the spaceframe of a ship that just goes on pleasure cruises around the solar system is going to wear out at the same rate as the spaceframe of an identical ship that is involved in battles every week?
I'm going by what we see. Apart from the two exceptional instances of Obies in combat, how many times do we see one doing anything other than research?
Name three kinds where it is specified that a design flaw on an Oberth class is responsible for it being in trouble?
You are missing the point of what I am trying to say...
Also, it's fun trying to figure things out from an in-universe perspective.
Considering that the Oberths in Emissary and FC were only seen for a fraction of a second, I could say the same thing to you about citing these examples as evidence in favour of your position.
Here's something else to coinsider...
The first time we saw an Obie was in Trek 3, which is 2285. We see them in FC which was set in 2373. That's about 90 years. Now, assume that the Grissom had already been refitted a few times, so we can assume that the design was already 20 years old. Given that the enterprise had been subject to at least one major refit which changed how she looked externally, I don't see that as being a problem.
So we have a window of 110 years that the Obies have been in service.
Now, remember Geordie's line from Relics regarding the Jenolin that she could still be in service today if not for some bit of damage. Relics was set in 2369, and the Jenolin crashed let's say shortly after the opening part of ST Gen, which was 2293. That's 76 years. Now, we can add a bit more time to that (after all, i don't think the Jenolin was on it's maiden voyage), so the age of the Jenolin was probably close to a century, and Geordie says it would still be fit for service if the damage was repaired.
There you go - precedent for ships having long lifespans. And bear in mind that the Jenolin hadn't been refit for 70 years or so. Geordie was saying she'd still be in service with 70 year old technology! If the Jenolin can do it, why not the Obies?
The first time we saw an Obie was in Trek 3, which is 2285. We see them in FC which was set in 2373. That's about 90 years. Now, assume that the Grissom had already been refitted a few times, so we can assume that the design was already 20 years old. Given that the enterprise had been subject to at least one major refit which changed how she looked externally, I don't see that as being a problem.
So we have a window of 110 years that the Obies have been in service.
Now, remember Geordie's line from Relics regarding the Jenolin that she could still be in service today if not for some bit of damage. Relics was set in 2369, and the Jenolin crashed let's say shortly after the opening part of ST Gen, which was 2293. That's 76 years. Now, we can add a bit more time to that (after all, i don't think the Jenolin was on it's maiden voyage), so the age of the Jenolin was probably close to a century, and Geordie says it would still be fit for service if the damage was repaired.
There you go - precedent for ships having long lifespans. And bear in mind that the Jenolin hadn't been refit for 70 years or so. Geordie was saying she'd still be in service with 70 year old technology! If the Jenolin can do it, why not the Obies?
70 or 80 years, sure. not 220.
Well the whole thrust of the thread is that the Oberth launched in the 2150's/60's... and we've seen them on screen as late as the 2370's.
Well, I started this thread to find out if its age had set in any books but the conversation has since evolved as they usually do. Now I hope someone will set an answer in ink.
I think this is good reasoning. I assumed we only saw Oberths in the battles of Wolf 359 and Sector 001 because they were desperate and the crews expected to be practically useless when they flew into battle.
However, what about the Soyuz? It is basically Miranda but was retired in the 2280s even though many Mirandas were later in service. Just becasue some ships had long service lives doesn't mean they all did. It is a bit of a stretch to estimate the serivce life of one class based upon that of another.
...And that's the perfect argument for having some ship classes serve for a long time and others for all of two years. Different ships do different jobs, and some jobs call for up-to-date designs while others can be done by one and the same design no matter what the date.
The Soyuz carries equipment seen nowhere else in Starfleet. A perfect excuse for arguing that the equipment either got outdated, or was only needed for a brief while. The Oberth in turn doesn't appear to carry anything special - or even anything ordinary, such as weapons. So nothing gets outdated, either. The Oberth has no enemies it would need to keep apace with, just immutable things like space, stars and cosmic dust. So the only thing that really needs upgrading is the coffee replicator...
We can argue that a starship, once built, will last for a thousand years unless violently terminated, or that it wears out in a set number of decades. But there's no onscreen evidence of wear and tear bringing down a starship - none at all. Contrary examples of nearly effortless reactivation of relics in turn abound.
Timo Saloniemi
The Soyuz carries equipment seen nowhere else in Starfleet. A perfect excuse for arguing that the equipment either got outdated, or was only needed for a brief while. The Oberth in turn doesn't appear to carry anything special - or even anything ordinary, such as weapons. So nothing gets outdated, either. The Oberth has no enemies it would need to keep apace with, just immutable things like space, stars and cosmic dust. So the only thing that really needs upgrading is the coffee replicator...
We can argue that a starship, once built, will last for a thousand years unless violently terminated, or that it wears out in a set number of decades. But there's no onscreen evidence of wear and tear bringing down a starship - none at all. Contrary examples of nearly effortless reactivation of relics in turn abound.
Timo Saloniemi
Because the Jenolan had been sitting around doing nothing for 70 years! If I had a car in my garage, completely untouched for 70 years, I could just fill it with gas after that period and it would drive just fine. And the Sydney class appearance in DS9 was, again, just because of budget limitations, since there was apparently no desire to build a brand-new transport model for just 5 seconds of screen time.
Yes, it is. We both have valid reasons why it can and can't work, and others who both agree and disagree with us. And since it's obvious that neither one of us is going to convince the other, I'm just going to let it drop.
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The OP brought up the point that a specific Daedalus had the registry NCC-470. However, it should be pointed out that supposedly SCE dragged that relic out of mothballs and refitted it for their own purposes. For all we know, the ship was both renamed and re-registered in that process, and no Daedalus originally carried a registry above NCC-190.
Quite a reverb time here, Cadet Bot.
Regarding the Daedalus type, canon examples of it are really sparse. If we start accepting noncanon references (such as the Encyclopedia), we'll probably have to take into account the dozens upon dozens of such ships from the ENT Romulan War novels. And the list of noncanon Oberths at Memory Beta is respectably long, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Regarding the Daedalus type, canon examples of it are really sparse. If we start accepting noncanon references (such as the Encyclopedia), we'll probably have to take into account the dozens upon dozens of such ships from the ENT Romulan War novels. And the list of noncanon Oberths at Memory Beta is respectably long, too.
Timo Saloniemi
That's easy. The Soyuz class had specialised sensor equipment, but then advances in sensor tech meant that they didn't need the class anymore. So every Soyuz vessel was recalled to space dock and converted back into a regular miranda class. hence no more Soyuz class.
And if the jenolin had been sitting in spacedock for 70 years, then your analogy would hold. But it would be more accurate to use the analogy of a car crashed in a ditch and left there for 70 years.
Fine. I'm pretty much done with this discussion.
Not the design I remembered. The one I do recall was designed by someone here from scratch...
Why do people think that you can equate a starship with cars. It doesn't work. Unless, the starship is continuously placed in missions that causes a massive amount of stress on the hull and spaceframe, a number of refits can push the vessel's longevity into decades. If we can have sea vessels today going for 90+ years, I think that the future could have a starship last considerably longer.
The USS Hathaway was launched in 2285 and yet it was still usable in 2365, all it needed was anti-matter.
The USS Hathaway was launched in 2285 and yet it was still usable in 2365, all it needed was anti-matter.
