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The New Klingons

Do you like the design of these new Klingons? What was your gut reaction?

  • I liked them

    Votes: 127 46.4%
  • I did not like them

    Votes: 147 53.6%

  • Total voters
    274
The purpose of a trailer is to give you the best possible glimpse into all of those things. There would be no point to a trailer otherwise. The trailer is a big fail.
I don't think that is the purpose of trailers any more. They are now designed to be flashy, grab your attention and let you know something is coming.

But, that's just me. I'll not watch something just because the trailer is good, or not watch it because the trailer is bad. So, trailers have little impact on my viewing choices.
 
That is why I said inconsistent. It certainly had some good acting. When it was good, it was good, but when it was bad, it was awful. :p
I think it's unfair to judge DS9 as a whole. Once TNG ended and Moore moved over, and Behr took over for Piller, the show transformed. Consider also that they were following TNG which was a very safe show. DS9 needed to time to reach its pinnacle since it was unlike anything else on TV Scifi at the time. Except of course the show from which DS9 was reverse engineered, or ripped off [Babylon5]. Tomato TomAHto
 
Interesting that Green's character is either part Vulcan or was raised on Vulcan long enough to have issues learning the language, yet she really seems to want to tear into the Klingons. She almost hates them like a Romulan might.
 
OMG! The back and forth fights over that were legendary! LOL
They were, but I was glad to see that both shows developed independently and neither treaded the other's ground. A testament to those who developed the shows rather than who first had the idea. Too much focus on ideation credit rather than focusing on the poor bastards that make these ideas work as episodic television [trips, falls off soapbox. spills beer.]
 
They were, but I was glad to see that both shows developed independently and neither treaded the other's ground. A testament to those who developed the shows rather than who first had the idea. Too much focus on ideation credit rather than focusing on the poor bastards that make these ideas work as episodic television [trips, falls off soapbox. spills beer.]

Both shows coming out at the same time happened for the exact reason we got two Mars movies the same year and other notable and obvious copy-catting going on in Hollywood. You know, like DSC and Orville at the same time. LOL
 
The purpose of a trailer is to give you the best possible glimpse into all of those things. There would be no point to a trailer otherwise. The trailer is a big fail.

It is a teaser trailer. It is meant to give a taste, nothing more.

And judging a movie or TV show by a trailer is the same as judging it by a poster or a book by it's cover.
 
And judging a movie or TV show by a trailer is the same as judging it by a poster or a book by it's cover.

That is an erroneous comparison. For what purpose do trailers exist if not to give people something to make a judgement about whether or not the production is worth their time?
 
That is an erroneous comparison. For what purpose do trailers exist if not to give people something to make a judgement about whether or not the production is worth their time?
Advertising. Things to talk about with friends around the water cooler, or whatever.

I don't find that comparison erroneuos at all Book covers rely upon visually appealing designs to intrigue the customer, not given an illustration of the author's prose prowess. Likewise, trailers have become something to draw attention, but there is not enough information, beyond subject matter, to indicate acting prowess, or how the story will unfold. I mean, trailers get beat upon all the time for "ruining" a film's story. "Avengers" comes to mind.

This trailer actually erred on not giving us a lot of details, not revealing everything, and in fact, creating some mysteries to it. So, it "hooked" me because I want to know what happens. Just like a book cover.
 
Advertising. Things to talk about with friends around the water cooler, or whatever.

I don't find that comparison erroneuos at all Book covers rely upon visually appealing designs to intrigue the customer, not given an illustration of the author's prose prowess. Likewise, trailers have become something to draw attention, but there is not enough information, beyond subject matter, to indicate acting prowess, or how the story will unfold. I mean, trailers get beat upon all the time for "ruining" a film's story. "Avengers" comes to mind.

This trailer actually erred on not giving us a lot of details, not revealing everything, and in fact, creating some mysteries to it. So, it "hooked" me because I want to know what happens. Just like a book cover.

I just can't agree with that. A trailer provides far more content to make a judgment on whether or not the production might be something you are interested in than does a poster.
 
Found this image of a Kelvin Klingon that I've never come across before:

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Good article on Memory Alpha:

Gene Coon primarily modeled the Klingons, metaphorically, on contemporary Russians, making the standoff between the species and the Federation representative of that between the Russians and the Americans during the then-ongoing Cold War. This view of the Klingons had their sociology theoretically aimed at "the collective good" rather than "individuality," as pointed out by Kor actor John Colicos. The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea. David A. McIntee explained, "There is some suggestion that the Klingons represent a Cold Warrior's view of China in the 1960s – swarthy, brutally repressive." Dave Rossi agreed, "In many ways, the Klingons were born out of our fear, as Americans, of [...] the Communists." According to D.C. Fontana, there were a range of other real-world sources that additionally gave rise to Coon's creation of the Klingons. "What did he want to accomplish? I think he just wanted a good, tough villain... for Kirk," Fontana speculated. "And I think he was basing a lot of it on the kind of attitude of the Japanese in World War II, the Nazis in World War II, because Gene was a World War II veteran marine and he really took all this to heart. And as a result, he modeled them on the worst villains he knew." McIntee concurred, "The Klingons with their conquests and military structure echo the Axis forces of World War Two as much as the Communist powers in Vietnam." Chekov actor Walter Koenig specified, "They [the Klingons] were evil and nationalistic. But Star Trek did not address the baser things in man. There was no imperialism or colonialism. We addressed this obliquely, hoping that someone would pick up our message out there."

The introduction of the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy" caused the casting of that episode to become a longer and more involved process than normal. This was because the production staff had little idea what a Klingon should look like. "I had never heard of a Klingon before," related Makeup Designer Fred Phillips. "And nothing in the script that I read told me what it was." Because John Colicos had likewise never previously heard of Klingons, he was also initially uncertain how they should be. "My first thought was 'What the hell is a Klingon? What does a Klingon look like? Well, they'll know what it's all about.'" Colicos assumed the Star Trek makeup department, in particular, would know precisely how a Klingon should look. "When I arrived at Paramount," the actor continued, "the make-up man said to me, 'What in the hell does a Klingon look like?'" Recalling his own response, Colicos related, "I said, 'You don't know either?'"

John Colicos and the relevant makeup artist sat down and began to devise how the Klingons should look. That makeup worker, Fred Phillips, started the process of designing the species by directly asking Colicos how he wanted to look. Despite thinking of the Klingons as the futuristic Russians they were intended to be, Colicos took inspiration from Genghis Khan, as Kor was likewise an ambitious military commander.
Goes into the Japanese samurai and viking influences later crept in during the filming of Star Trek I, Star Trek III, Star Trek VI, The Emissary, A Matter of Honor, Sins of the Father, Redemption, etc.
 
Well if the Klingons are based on the Cold war era Soviets, then it would have make sense that there would be different type of Klingons as the Soviet Unions consisted of many different nationalities. You had Nordic, Baltic, Slavic, Caucasus, Turkic and Mongol looking Soviets. So a multi ethnic Klingon Empire makes sense.
 
Well if the Klingons are based on the Cold war era Soviets, then it would have make sense that there would be different type of Klingons as the Soviet Unions consisted of many different nationalities. You had Nordic, Baltic, Slavic, Caucasus, Turkic and Mongol looking Soviets. So a multi ethnic Klingon Empire makes sense.
You're right in a way, but there's a difference between being a metaphor for something and being based on it.

The Klingons were on the other side of the Federation in the Cold War metaphor, which was topical in the 1960s. In all other ways, they were broadly just a blend of villain tropes.

In any case, multi-nationality is consistent with, if not implied by, an Empire.
 
That is an erroneous comparison. For what purpose do trailers exist if not to give people something to make a judgement about whether or not the production is worth their time?

No it isn't. A trailers purpose is to sell movie/show, but that doesn't mean you can actually judge the end product.

A person can't tell from a advert whether they'd like the taste of a certain kind of food or enjoy driving this or that car. The advert exists to make you you aware the product is there and to tempt you to try it.
 
I just can't agree with that. A trailer provides far more content to make a judgment on whether or not the production might be something you are interested in than does a poster.

Okay, so what content did the teaser provide that was enough to decide this project is bad?
 
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The range of influences on the Klingons is a really interesting combo, I always thought - The Mongol Empire from John "Kor" Colicos makeup choice, The Soviet Union, Maoist China, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Norse Vikings - their cities architecture look faintly Tibetan in Enterprise to me, and more Viking in The Next Generation. It all speaks of both Central Asian nomads, barbarian sailors, and European or Asian police states. But it would be racist to read too much into that, as they are at the end of the day an alien society; their choice of dress just reflects what people thought of their origins over the years. Initially they wanted the Klingons to just be strong adversary to really act as a foil for Kirk:

Fontana speculated. "And I think he was basing a lot of it on the kind of attitude of the Japanese in World War II, the Nazis in World War II, because Gene was a World War II veteran marine and he really took all this to heart. And as a result, he modeled them on the worst villains he knew."​

There is quite a lot of parallel with the Daleks, who were also created as reflections of Nazism. Then during the Motion Picture era, because of Japan's popularity in the 70s and 80s, they actually wanted Toshiro Mifune of Seven Samurai fame to play a Klingon commander (he could have also played Obi Wan Kenobi), and gave the Klingons elements of pre-modern feudal culture.

John Meredyth Lucas wrote a two-part episode entitled "Kitumba" which, if filmed, would have established a radically different Klingon culture to the one developed in subsequent series and films. For a start, it would have been revealed only members of the Empire's warrior caste are called Klingons. The other castes are called the technos, who are the scientists and technicians, and the subjects. A relationship similar to the Emperor and Chancellor in later series would also be established, with the ceremonial Kitumba residing on the Sacred Planet that orbits closer to the sun, while the Warlord presides over political and military decisions on Ultar, the story's name for the Klingon homeworld.

In essence, the Klingon Empire of this story took major influence from Japan.

Lucas explained, "I wanted something that we had never seen before on the series, and that's a penetration deep into enemy space. I then began to think how the Klingons lived [....] The Japanese came to mind, so basically that's what it was. You know, the sacred Emperor, the Warlord and so on."​

After the publication of the novel The Final Reflection in 1984 at the height of the Motion Picture trilogy of Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock and The Voyage Home, John M Ford's Klingon society became popular in fandom. For those who have not read John M Ford's the Final Reflection, it depicted a Klingon culture that was very different to any we have seen on screen. Their society was based on social Darwinism moderated by a code of conduct that prevented complete disintegration through infighting - they were a police state where advancement came through assassination and expansion of the Klingon state on behalf of patrons in military/intelligence circles - many races including Vulcanoids were captured and used as personal slaves like in antiquity - a game similar to chess was used as a metaphor for personal advancement - the Klingon Empire was very multi-ethnic like the Huns or Mongols for this reason, probably with slave species eventually becoming admixed with the general Klingon population.

Particular aspects of Klingon society depicted include:
  • A strong Klingon emphasis on battle-related games. The title refers to a move in klin zha, a Klingon game with similarities to chess; in this particular variation, the "reflective" game, both players take turns playing one set of pieces.
  • Games played with living players.
  • Military strategy is the particular province of a military class known as "thought admirals," who hone their skills in "the game with living pieces." They also seek to learn how other societies think militarily by studying the games of those people.
  • The distinction between empire-building races—such as the Klingons, the Humans and Vulcans with their Federation, and the Romulans—and less driven races, whom the Klingons use as servants (kuve).
Finally, Ronald D Moore came up with a very different idea of them, as being in some ways a respectable society of feudal houses akin to Dune, and with strong elements of ritualism that resembled pre-modern societies much more strongly:

Entitled "Klingon History and Culture: A Brief Overview" and running two pages long, Ron Moore's descriptive memo about the Klingons began with a description of the Klingon Empire, outlining that the planets therein enjoyed "many advantages and benefits of their association with the Klingons." The memo went on to say, "The Klingons are not evil, tyrannical pirates bent only on pillage and plunder. They have a strict, almost unyielding code of ethics and honor and take their responsibilities as rulers seriously." Following a description of the Klingon homeworld, the memo continued by saying, "Klingon society could most closely be compared to that of Sparta or feudal Japan." A description of the Klingon Empire's political system followed, involving the High Council and establishing that there was an Emperor. The document continued, "Klingons have a very complex and highly developed code of conduct, involving almost every aspect of their lives. Their sense of honor and integrity is integral to their very being." The text then detailed Klingon Houses and the high importance with which Klingons held them, before stating, "Strangers must prove their worthiness before a Klingon will accept them as an equal. Weakness, either mental or physical, is not tolerated. Klingons are born to be warriors. Time spent in other professions is used only to expand their knowledge and range of skills in preparation for being a warrior. Several of the races they have conquered now serve as the merchants, farmers, traders, machinists, et cetera, of the Empire. Klingons respect courage, strength and cunning, in that order [....] Klingons respect the declared war, the killing stroke, the blood feud, death in the field of battle and clear positions of hostility.

Much of the memo's content was inspired by literature, with The Final Reflection serving as the primary influence. In general terms involving Houses and conflicts between them, the fictional universe of Dune, created by Frank Herbert, was very influential too. Two historical societies, the Samurai and Vikings, served as other inspirations, Moore perceiving about Klingon culture, "There was the calm, elegant reserve associated with the Samurai but there was the 'party-down' like the Vikings." Additionally, he said of the Klingons, "They had these real intricate codes of honor and poetry, like the Samurai. They were also like the Vikings; they were big, brawling, larger than life, they liked to drink and sing big songs like the Vikings, or at least our conception of the Vikings. That was where I began with the culture. The irony was that I wrote them more like the Romulans had been in the original series [as a very honorable warrior caste who had codes of ethics]."

I wanted the Klingons to be this long-running Empire with a long, glorious history, [whose politics had gone on for a few thousand years] and whoever is up and whoever is down is just one more chapter."
I think the main problem with Moore's conception of the Klingons, was that the ritualism and stuff about honor was taken too far, especially in DS9. Also another problem was that he conceived there being a lot of benefit to being associated with the Klingon Empire, but we know from history that tyranny of that sort is usually not at all as glamorous as it sounds on paper. I guess it is worth noting that the JJ Abrams Klingons were very popular in terms of makeup design (I must admit I was impressed):

Earl Ellis not only described the new Klingons as looking "more elegant" than they had in the past but also reckoned, "I think the fans will be very happy with them." Heather Langenkamp commented, "Of all the make-up we did, we're most proud of the Klingons. It's really powerful and fantastic. There's something very regal about it." Langenkamp was personally happy with the makeup herself, saying, "I think, technically, the Klingons are the most beautiful makeups in the movie. It looked so great on the actors."​

"One thing I tried to do with the Klingons, which was a tough one, is make them sexy: a beautiful-ugly group of men. I think we got it. Not that the previous actors were ugly, but it was a very conscious choice of who we cast, a very conscious sculpting of the Klingon form to make them look sexy. In a way."​

I think all these elements can be reconciled within the diversity of the Klingon Empire - which is clearly not the monolithic culture we saw in DS9 - new Klingons can be part Gene L. Coon, part John M. Ford, part Ronald D. Moore ones - have periods of fascism, feudalism, slavery, and social Darwinism, without invalidating any previous view.

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Certainly i'd agree Kor had no real agency once the Organians figure what was up, but Kirk hardly had any say in the outcome either. All his running around and daring-do was for not. The Organians were in control the whole time. The futility and insanity of war, and all that.

I just don't agree that Kor was "one dimensional" as a character. Anymore than Kang or Koloth. In fact, i'd say of the three Koloth is the guy who comes off the most one dimensional, just out to be an intergalactic asshole. Kor was killing civilians, yes, but he saw it as a duty to the Empire to see to it that the Klingon species survive and stay strong. He even admitted many of their methods were shrewd, rough around the edges. And, again, it seems motivated by a much bigger picture of intergalactic politics between The Federation and the Klingons that we only ever get that little peak at via Kirk and Kor's brief impassioned exchanges over things like "disputed territories" and "cutting off vital supplies, crushing our trade. You've been asking for war!"

Kor doesn't come off totally unjustified in his behavior, from his perspective. He admits respect for his adversaries. He doesn't threaten Kirk in the way that a TNG era Klingon would have. He let's Kirk think it over. He tries a more even handed, reasonable approach. Which, even if that is merely an attempt to use what he see's as "weak Federation diplomacy" against the Federation, it still shows far more nuance and depth of thought than later Klingons. Who literally seemed to be unable to control their temper for five minutes. And everything seemed to be an offense to honor, and could get you killed.

Kor comes off as self-aware about his place in history; not a mindless ideologue, but intelligent enough to know that the Klingon state is potentially just one more footnote in galactic history. He understands that war's fortunes may one day turn against the Empire. "Today we conquer... oh, if someday we are defeated, well, war has it's fortunes." He seems flippant about military conflict to an extent, just like his portrayal in DS9 as worshiping glory itself without remorse.
 
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At this stage in either Voyager or Enterprise's production, they would've gone back and refilmed whole scenes because Executives didn't like Kate Mulgrew or Scott Bakula's hairstyle. Just sayin'. No need to go that far... but there's still time to break out a few CG beards to give these Klingons back one of their trademark features.

There's got to be something established about the race, which ties having hair with either religious belief (such as in Sikhism or the Muslim faith) or simply as a sign of courage. Seems implausible not one of them is hirsute.
 
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