The New Enterprise Reveald

[Admiral Buzzkill]

True, but I think it could have been done better.

Or much, much worse. Just look around the Internet.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself ... I loved the Phoenix!

I still like it myself, but it's obviously not up to the demands of this kind of feature - it's the kind of creative scribbling-in-the-margins that fans like to do. I like some things about Gabe's version too, but feel the same way about it.

As to whether this approach will succeed - well, on TrekBBS it's won over nine out of ten people who've expressed an opinion about it at least to the extent that they intend to see it, and eight of those nine express some optimism about it. We'll see what we'll see, but so far Abrams and company seem to be doing everything right to make "Star Trek" a popular big screen hit for the first time since...well, ever.

 

[Ptrope]

If they didn't redesign the ship, they probably wouldn't have redesigned anything leaving us with TOS on the big screen which wouldn't have translated at all.

Frankly, I think the fact that they didn't redesign the uniforms in any substantial way is going to be a much bigger barrier to acceptance than a polished TOS 1701 would've been - miniskirts say '1966' a lot more than a well-detailed ship would've. And no one has yet come up with any rational reason why the original design, detailed appropriately, would've negatively affected non-fans. Not once. It's the most purely subjective element of the film, IMO, but I've seen nothing that indicates it would've made a bit of difference if the story and characters are any good; the only people who care at all are people so steeped in Trek that they either want no change at all or they want it all changed (which, to me, makes it "not Trek," anyway).

The uniforms, on the other hand - I can easily see a lot of non-fans saying, "Yeah, right! Still just as cheesy as I remember it." Heck, even I think the uniforms look cheesy, especially in the new visual context of the rest of the film. I hate to say it, but ENT probably had the most believable uniforms for the current generation - not necessarily 'Star Trek' in feel, but at least they looked like someone might wear them on the job.

 

[Psion]

Or much, much worse. Just look around the Internet.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself ... I loved the Phoenix!

I still like it myself, but it's obviously not up to the demands of this kind of feature - it's the kind of creative scribbling-in-the-margins that fans like to do. I like some things about Gabe's version too, but feel the same way about it.

As to whether this approach will succeed - well, on TrekBBS it's won over nine out of ten people who've expressed an opinion about it at least to the extent that they intend to see it, and eight of those nine express some optimism about it. We'll see what we'll see, but so far Abrams and company seem to be doing everything right to make "Star Trek" a popular big screen hit for the first time since...well, ever.

Nine out of ten? According to this poll, it's less than six out of ten. But you and I both know that self-reported data is insufficient. I'd suggest we round up all the TrekBBS regulars, strap 'em down and run them through magnetic resonance scans of their brains while images of the old and new Enterprise are flashed. THEN we'd be pretty sure. I bet we'd do even better if we could take tissue samples!

But that's not what I want to quibble about. What I liked about your Phoenix and even Gabe's 1701 is that they both adhered to their design themes. I called the new Enterprise the Starship Platypus the day it was revealed because of the design inconsistencies from one section to the next. Mostly because of the differences between the primary and the secondary hulls, but even the warp nacelles don't look like they mesh properly with the secondary hull. It's a weird designed-by-committee look that designers far more accomplished than yours truly have commented on.

Plus they built the damned thing on the ground.

I'd be happy with the original ship, a "scribbling-in-the-margins" look, or a completely new profile ... so long as it adhered to a common design philosophy. Then they add droopy pylons and sleeves on the nacelles that give it a Salvidor Dali look. The Kelvin, in my opinion, is beautiful. Not only is it consistent with the look of earlier starship ideas but updated for the big screen, but it's also consistent with itself.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nine out of ten? According to this poll, it's less than six out of ten.

Ah, I was unclear. We were discussing the likelihood of the movie being a success; I wasn't talking about the popularity of the ship design but of the polls and discussions dedicated in one way or another to "will you see this movie?" That's breaking down along the lines of nine of ten respondents saying that they will, with on average one or two of those nine being pretty skeptical but likely to see it at least once.

Respondents saying that they will not see the movie under any circumstances - including DVD release - occasionally bumps up as high as one in ten and never reaches two in ten.

Polls of self-selected respondents are never accurate, however they're likely to overstate the negative - simply put, people with a complaint or who are unhappy about something are more likely to express that than folks who are basically satisfied. Of course, the remarkable thing here is that no one responding to one of these polls or topics can really be called anything other than a "serious Trek fan" - otherwise, they wouldn't be registered and posting on the subject around here.

The responses we've seen in the media from non-fans - those members of the media who've been exposed to Abrams' traveling show - are in general more positive and less cautious than the fan base.

 

[Psion]

If they didn't redesign the ship, they probably wouldn't have redesigned anything leaving us with TOS on the big screen which wouldn't have translated at all.

Frankly, I think the fact that they didn't redesign the uniforms in any substantial way is going to be a much bigger barrier to acceptance than a polished TOS 1701 would've been - miniskirts say '1966' a lot more than a well-detailed ship would've. And no one has yet come up with any rational reason why the original design, detailed appropriately, would've negatively affected non-fans. Not once. It's the most purely subjective element of the film, IMO, but I've seen nothing that indicates it would've made a bit of difference if the story and characters are any good; the only people who care at all are people so steeped in Trek that they either want no change at all or they want it all changed (which, to me, makes it "not Trek," anyway).


The uniforms, on the other hand - I can easily see a lot of non-fans saying, "Yeah, right! Still just as cheesy as I remember it." Heck, even I think the uniforms look cheesy, especially in the new visual context of the rest of the film. I hate to say it, but ENT probably had the most believable uniforms for the current generation - not necessarily 'Star Trek' in feel, but at least they looked like someone might wear them on the job.

Yeah ... RIGHT! It's weird that they tried to "scribbling-in-the-margins" (borrowing Mr. Bailey's phrase) to update the uniforms, but radically altered the Enterprise. I think the new uniforms look great, but they still don't look especially military ... they just look like cool Trek uniforms; something I'm prepared to accept on the screen, but will anyone else? When I saw the new uniforms, I thought, "Wow! There's nothing to worry about regarding the ship or interiors now ... they're practically slavish to the original show!"

With a few tweaks, the original Enterprise would have been fine up on the big screen. Trim down the ridiculously over-sized navigation lights, hide some weld lines in the finish, put details around the view ports, put some irregularities in that are only visible close up, and make the thing look huge onscreen, and no one would think it was outdated. And I say that as someone who'd have been happy with a radical redesign as long as it looked better than what we're getting. I just don't like this new ship.

Ah, I was unclear. We were discussing the likelihood of the movie being a success; I wasn't talking about the popularity of the ship design but of the polls and discussions dedicated in one way or another to "will you see this movie?" That's breaking down along the lines of nine of ten respondents saying that they will, with on average one or two of those nine being pretty skeptical but likely to see it at least once.

Respondents saying that they will not see the movie under any circumstances - including DVD release - occasionally bumps up as high as one in ten and never reaches two in ten.

Polls of self-selected respondents are never accurate, however they're likely to overstate the negative - simply put, people with a complaint or who are unhappy about something are more likely to express that than folks who are basically satisfied. Of course, the remarkable thing here is that no one responding to one of these polls or topics can really be called anything other than a "serious Trek fan" - otherwise, they wouldn't be registered and posting on the subject around here.

The responses we've seen in the media from non-fans - those members of the media who've been exposed to Abrams' traveling show - are in general more positive and less cautious than the fan base.

[smacks forehead] Oh ... gotcha! I understand and agree about non-fans. The stuff we're arguing over would just make normal people go . But that's part of the fun of having Trek as a hobby.

 

[Praetor]

If they didn't redesign the ship, they probably wouldn't have redesigned anything leaving us with TOS on the big screen which wouldn't have translated at all.

Frankly, I think the fact that they didn't redesign the uniforms in any substantial way is going to be a much bigger barrier to acceptance than a polished TOS 1701 would've been - miniskirts say '1966' a lot more than a well-detailed ship would've. And no one has yet come up with any rational reason why the original design, detailed appropriately, would've negatively affected non-fans. Not once. It's the most purely subjective element of the film, IMO, but I've seen nothing that indicates it would've made a bit of difference if the story and characters are any good; the only people who care at all are people so steeped in Trek that they either want no change at all or they want it all changed (which, to me, makes it "not Trek," anyway).

The uniforms, on the other hand - I can easily see a lot of non-fans saying, "Yeah, right! Still just as cheesy as I remember it." Heck, even I think the uniforms look cheesy, especially in the new visual context of the rest of the film. I hate to say it, but ENT probably had the most believable uniforms for the current generation - not necessarily 'Star Trek' in feel, but at least they looked like someone might wear them on the job.

Thank you for writing my posts for me, noble mod. QFT

 

[yotsuya]

Oh, I so agree about the new uniforms. I was so pleased when I saw the design and the casting. (I mean all of these actors look far closer to their original counterparts than the two Saaviks). I can see that in the fictional Trek universe that Starfleet changed suppliers.

When it comes to the Enterprise, if they want ti to fit in the Trek universe, it would at least need to have the same curves as the TOS or TMP models and the same proportions. It doesn't. It has completely new curves and they are mostly bad. I get the feeling they want this to be how the Enterprise looked when it was launched (so they think they can play more with the design). What they came up with (and it looks so committee designed) matches the old lines we are used to about as well as the typical cartoon enterprise.

I am not a vehement about some of the design aspects. All I ask for would be to fix the saucer to have the right complexity of lines (like the concave curve on the understide) and be the right size, for the nacelles to not be so grotesquely large in the front, and for the dorsal to follow the same wider at the top than bottom as the original. I can see refits changing the nacelles and the bridge and the secondary hull, but the overall proportions being so different makes it impossible for me to think of this as the same ship. And those design elements I'm commenting on specifically, the over large saucers and bussard collectors, are the design elements I dislike from an aesthetic standpoint, not just a continuity standpoint. It looks misshapen and unbalanced. It's like someone went "it has this big saucer and these big bubbles on the front of the engines" and someone took that and over enlarged those portions of the original deisign. To me, this Enterprise is a characteur of the original.

My real complaint is that it just doesn't show any inspiration. It's like they tried to hard and fell on their faces. The new Enterprise reminds me of Vista in many ways.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Looks good to me.

The uniforms bother me a bit, though. I guess I was used enough to the old TOS uniforms in that environment that it didn't seem like they'd look so cartoonish - of course, they're more intensely colored than the originals, which makes them pop in a rather startling way.

The filmmakers might have been better off changing the uniforms more to match the rest of the design. Maybe they'll fine-tune things more in the all-but-certain sequel.

 

[ancient]

I would rather they'd made the command uniforms khaki or something, and I think the collar should be a bit more defined. And give the women back their sleeves for cryin out loud!

Of course, I'd rather have the TOS ENT with a little sprucing/detailing, but it ain't gonna happen apparently, so that's that. I can live with the new design.

 

[USS Mariner]

The filmmakers might have been better off changing the uniforms more to match the rest of the design. Maybe they'll fine-tune things more in the all-but-certain sequel.

Presumptuous, just a little?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Maybe they'll fine-tune things more in the all-but-certain sequel.

Presumptuous, just a little?

Very little, really. The wishful thinking these days is on the part of folks who expect the movie to fail. The determined naysayers can't even talk more than a few people on a Star Trek board into agreeing with them.

That said, if one goes through life fearful of others saying "you guessed wrong," one misses so much.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I've found the surest way to not get a sequel is to go in expecting one is already in the bag. That kind of presumptuousness is very off-putting.

 

[number6]

I've found the surest way to not get a sequel is to go in expecting one is already in the bag. That kind of presumptuousness is very off-putting.

No it isn't. All the actors signed a three movie deal as standard, locking them in in case the film does well enough to warrant a sequel. Obviously Paramount and the Hollywood community is excited enough by what they've seen of this film to expect it to do well and there's nothing wrong with that kind of optimism. Nothing at all. Of course, the proof will be in the storytelling and the overall quallity of this film to determine whether the audience will flock to the theatres for a sequel with this new team. A few disgruntled purists aren't going to stop that from happening if the gneral public likes this new film.

 

[Warped9]

A basic issue here is one's expectations. I've always liked and found the TOS uniforms perfectly acceptable in design. What they need mostly for today are better materials and finish and a tweaking of the colour tones. But they work in context as TOS' Starfleet is not strictly military as we currently understand it. Also the uniforms were meant to look like something other than what we're more familiar with. They're supposed to look of another era. The same applies to the TMP costumes which have been widely ridiculed.

When folks are dealing with SF it's still sometimes hard to get a bit beyond contemporary perspectives of what's normal or what works. When you look at things like fashion historically from decades to centuries past the clothing of the time looks odd to us yet was perfectly acceptable at the time.

Someone above thread referenced the uniforms from ENT as being more credible. Actually they're not when you have a gravity environment. Like DS9's outfits before a jumpsuit or fatigue is not the easiest thing to get into if you happened to be rushed like during an emergency (or a red alert and called to action stations). The TNG uniforms of the first two seasons were also basically jumpsuits that don't make sense to get into in a hurry. The 3rd-7th season TNG uniforms were also stupidly designed with the damned clothing seam up the back. What are you supposed to do in an emergency? "Computer, emergency zip!"

 

[Irishman]

Calm down. This is not the end of the world.

Hm. Interesting phrase.

It CAN be consideredthe end of A world. The "world" of original Star Trek, with the original cast, and, apparently, continuity.

The original cast CANNOT reprise their roles anymore. Period.

Unless you've got some clever way to re-animate the dead. DeForrest Kelly and Jimmy Doohan are NOT coming back.

So, in that sense, the end of that world you mention happened some years ago already.

Continuity? At the expense of a great story?

If you had to pick, (and I know this could be considered a false dichotomy) but if you had to pick between that compelling story and adherence to a riding on the rails because you know what's coming sort of canonicity, which would you pick?

I know what my answer would be.

If you want the latter, then have someone make an audiobook of a dramatic reading of the Trek Tech Manual or Chronology.

You'll be happier.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I've found the surest way to not get a sequel is to go in expecting one is already in the bag. That kind of presumptuousness is very off-putting.

If I were a producer or associated with Paramount in any way that might be relevant. I'm just a guy telling the truth on the Internet about what I expect to happen, and my being "off-putting" to a couple of people on TrekBBS will have no negative impact on the likely performance of the movie at all.

If we can't manage actual humility we may as well try to hold on to some sense of proportion about how much - or how little - our opinions matter.

There's no real reason, other than wishful thinking or the mistaken belief that the only information relevant to understanding "Star Trek" is previous "Star Trek," to think this movie isn't going to perform to at least the standard of, oh, "Batman Begins." Under the circumstances that will be sufficient to greenlight a sequel.

 

[Ptrope]

There's no real reason, other than wishful thinking or the mistaken belief that the only information relevant to understanding "Star Trek" is previous "Star Trek," to think this movie isn't going to perform to at least the standard of, oh, "Batman Begins." Under the circumstances that will be sufficient to greenlight a sequel.

I'd say that this Trek performing anywhere near the standard set by Batman Begins is wishful thinking, indeed. C'mon - it's Star Trek! It's not a Pixar movie, it's not a Spielberg or Lucas movie, it doesn't have Ahhnuld, Vin Diesel, Halle Berry or giant robots in it, and J.J. Abrams doesn't have any real star power on the big screen - Cloverfield has barely made more worldwide than this movie cost.

Trek XI will probably do okay. It's not likely to set any records, though; if it makes back its cost domestically, I'll be very surprised. Of course, that doesn't mean Paramount won't make a sequel - their involvement with Trek has turned into a fetish, where they think they can get any- and everybody interested in the franchise every 5 years as long as they tell everyone "it's not your father's Star Trek." We may not want to see Trek die, but Paramount's interest has become almost necrophilic.

 

[ThunderAeroI]

I'd argue you can not have a 'great' story at the disreguard for canon. If you select not to use established canon or violate it a way which is so obviouse as to construct a plot point, the story you're telling isn't great. Its bad.

 

[Vance]

... assuming, of course, we have a compelling story that requires the rewrite of continuity.

Thing is, I really don't buy that excuse, though. Star Trek's setting is 'the galaxy, in the future, most of the time'. How is that really so limiting? VOY and ENT were getting stale not because "Trek was out of stories" but because the same staff that had been in charge of Trek for two decades were out of stories.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'd say that this Trek performing anywhere near the standard set by Batman Begins is wishful thinking, indeed. C'mon - it's Star Trek!

That's the kind of thinking that Paramount has got to overcome in order to make "Star Trek" worth doing, and it's a great part of the reason for not pandering to Trek fans. Basically, it's worth ignoring or pissing off ten or fifteen percent of the fan base in the hope of making a movie that someone other than a Trek fan might want to see, because getting every remaining Trek fan in the country to see the movie could not make it profitable.

Obviously the studio is very happy with the finished movie and sees a lot of box office potential in it. By this stage of the game when studio executives have a movie that's in trouble they generally know it, and you can tell that they know because of the way they handle press access and publicity.

Paramount is behaving right now in the opposite of the way they would if the movie were problematic. They're showing fifteen or twenty percent of it to members of the entertainment press and media outlets all over the world almost six months before release (when a studio knows that a movie is trouble, it becomes difficult for reviewers to even get a look at it a week before release). And the response and consequent publicity that they're getting from that is the best they could hope for, overwhelmingly positive.

"Star Trek" fans are not, on the whole, very good indicators of the popular interest in or marketability of a movie. We've been supporting mediocre Trek movies for a quarter of a century, and the one that comes up as most popular with fans in poll after poll - TWOK - is not nearly the most successful of the bunch in box office terms.