Nope - it was fun, and a lot of us appreciated it. So their "bothering" was definitely worthwhile.
"The Naked Now" James T. Kirk announcement
- Thread starter darkshadow0001
- Start date
Nope - it was fun, and a lot of us appreciated it. So their "bothering" was definitely worthwhile.
I for one sort of appreciated them using the picture of the ship as she went down, rather than a picture of the ship as she was during those events. That's verisimilitude for me...
I mean, if I searched the wikipedia or some afecionado page (or even an official naval source) for an entry on a century-old vessel, the main picture of her would in all probability represent her last known configuration, not one of the preceding ones.
Real-world organizations are embarrassed about the early low standards of their equipment, too! If Starfleet could show a modernized Constitution, it would - why stoop to showing a ship of lesser performance, of more antiquated standards?
We may think the TOS configuration represented the ship in her highest glory. Starfleet would have little reason to think that. From the Starfleet POV, the ship became better through the TMP refit, and performed her greatest and publicly best known Earth-saving feat in that guise, too.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, if I searched the wikipedia or some afecionado page (or even an official naval source) for an entry on a century-old vessel, the main picture of her would in all probability represent her last known configuration, not one of the preceding ones.
Real-world organizations are embarrassed about the early low standards of their equipment, too! If Starfleet could show a modernized Constitution, it would - why stoop to showing a ship of lesser performance, of more antiquated standards?
We may think the TOS configuration represented the ship in her highest glory. Starfleet would have little reason to think that. From the Starfleet POV, the ship became better through the TMP refit, and performed her greatest and publicly best known Earth-saving feat in that guise, too.
Timo Saloniemi
You're right. Looking at the Wikipedia entries for Essex-class carriers, those that were upgraded are first shown in the post-upgrade configuration. Except for Intrepid, which shows in a WW2 picture for some reason -- I was actually expecting to see her in her current status as a museum ship in NYC.
As for Kirk, I thought TNN's mention was a bit underplayed. Wouldn't Kirk be fairly well-known to serving Starfleet officers? I imagine the officers of the current Enterprise know who, say, Halsey and Spruance were.
If Kirk isn't relatively famous as Starfleet captains go, then the TOS era must have been really dangerous.
A couple of those were actually TOS-used chairs, which got trashed either here or in "The Battle" (I forget which) - much to the consternation of some of the TOS fans working on the series.
There were few deliberate nods to the original series early on.
You have to remember that part of TNG's "mission statement" per some of GRs comments was to in many ways "reboot" the Trek universe, which is why so many things got changed around (no credits, etc). Another part was that supposedly there would be virtually no "call backs" to TOS. Klingons and Romulans, for example, were not supposed to appear at all (thus the need for the Ferengi).
Now that didn't last long, in some ways, what with the writiers managing to get Worf approved and all, but TNG never lost the slightly "dismissive" tone towards TOS that it inherited from those early days. It DID tone down a bit over time, and thus we got eps like the reasonably respectful "Relics" (though they still treated Scotty horribly). "Unification" just made me want to slap the hell out of Picard for talking to Spock that way "this sort of cowboy diplomacy..."....
And don't get me started on the sneering dismissiveness of Janeway over in Voyager "The whole lot of them would be thrown out of Starfleet..."
The only show to give TOS the respect it deserved was DS9, really.
What an odd point of view, I never felt they looked down on TOS at all...a sense mainly two things...the desire to re-make ST on their own terms and without relying on elements of ST TV history. That some of the producers thought TOS was good, but that modern production and writing could make STNG better...a healthy attitude to have...and they were right!
I also never understood certain "purists" views on "Relics". I thought they treated Scotty quite well considering his "volunteered" info was 80 years out of date. It was the single best dramatic story ever told with Scotty involved, he never had that much screen time in TOS! While the original crew is beloved, they never really were well developed.
RAMA
As I see it, the TNG intro states ".... It's continuing Mission...." it's the Enterprise D, thus they know very well Kirk and the Enterprise.
If my memory is correct, it was Data reporting the previous incident, and like the Data we all know, he stated it generically as he normally would, stating what ship it was and who captained it, even if it was common knowledge by all there.
The details of the original Enterprise's various missions might not have been on the top of everybody's head, but they'd know the ship and know the captain.
While I didn't really care for the episode overall, I had no personal issue with them "Dropping" Kirk's name or mentioning of the original Enterprise.
To me, it'd be kinda silly to have a new Star Trek with another Enterprise and never once mention anything about the original Star Trek or the original Enterprise.
When I look back at the Original series and TNG, there were many things that were a bit different between the two shows, thus dropping some names, having McCoy appear in the first episode, later having Spock and Scotty show up on other episodes is perfectly fine for me.
If you're not going to tie the other series like TOS, DS9, Voyager, etc. together like they relate in any way, why bother calling another ship the Enterprise? Why bother bring O'Brien and Worf to DS9? Why even mention the Badlands or the Maquis in Voyager? Or the Borg for that matter?
They were all part of the bigger ST Universe, thus tossing out examples, or interactions/history links between the shows should be perfectly fine.
There's worse things to bicker about imo :P
If my memory is correct, it was Data reporting the previous incident, and like the Data we all know, he stated it generically as he normally would, stating what ship it was and who captained it, even if it was common knowledge by all there.
The details of the original Enterprise's various missions might not have been on the top of everybody's head, but they'd know the ship and know the captain.
While I didn't really care for the episode overall, I had no personal issue with them "Dropping" Kirk's name or mentioning of the original Enterprise.
To me, it'd be kinda silly to have a new Star Trek with another Enterprise and never once mention anything about the original Star Trek or the original Enterprise.
When I look back at the Original series and TNG, there were many things that were a bit different between the two shows, thus dropping some names, having McCoy appear in the first episode, later having Spock and Scotty show up on other episodes is perfectly fine for me.
If you're not going to tie the other series like TOS, DS9, Voyager, etc. together like they relate in any way, why bother calling another ship the Enterprise? Why bother bring O'Brien and Worf to DS9? Why even mention the Badlands or the Maquis in Voyager? Or the Borg for that matter?
They were all part of the bigger ST Universe, thus tossing out examples, or interactions/history links between the shows should be perfectly fine.
There's worse things to bicker about imo :P
No, that was just because it wasn't going to be a five-year mission and they needed another word in place of "five-year" to get the rhythm right. After all, it's a different ship, so its mission isn't a continuation of some other ship's mission.
True, but the objection at the time was that it was brought in too soon. It's easy to look back from 23 years later and say it was fine, but at a time when this new cast was still trying to prove itself to audiences, to climb out from under the long shadow cast by the original crew, it was seen as a misstep to call attention to the old crew so early in the game.
And really, TNG did have trouble distinguishing itself from TOS early on, perhaps because it had some of the same writers and producers early on. The Q plot in the pilot was a rehash of super-advanced TOS aliens like Trelane and the Organians, the second episode was a blatant remake of "The Naked Time," the third episode ("Code of Honor") culminated in a combat scene that was widely regarded as an "Amok Time" rehash, and so on. It took them a while to establish a distinctive voice.
Other way around, really. The Maquis were created as backstory for VGR, and seeded in TNG and DS9 to set up the new spinoff. Though it can be hard to realize that considering that DS9 made better use of the Maquis concept than VGR itself did.
Suddenly I'm reminded of Pike's remarks in ST XI about Starfleet having lost some quality in its officers.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Then they should have gone full reboot at the time, not tied the new show deliberately into the old one.
Hardly a "purist". I like modern Trek well enough, but the issue of how each series treated it's original source is a thorny one. The only one that gave TOS and it's characters the respect and honor due to them was DS9. After all, Kirk and crew were galactic heroes, who had saved both individual planets and galactic civilization itself many many times over.
Geordi was an outright frakking ass to him. Picard pulled the condescending "everyone needs to feel useful" routine (which if you rewatch that scene he told Geordi he was free to ignore what he said).
Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!
And don't forget, most of the stuff Kirk and Picard's crews did "first" were pre-empted by Star Trek Enterprise. Time travel, cloaking devices, the Borg, alternate universes...Archer's lot did it all first. So Kirk and co look like a dolts too, now
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And don't forget, most of the stuff Kirk and Picard's crews did "first" were pre-empted by Star Trek Enterprise. Time travel, cloaking devices, the Borg, alternate universes...Archer's lot did it all first. So Kirk and co look like a dolts too, now
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Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!
Well, not exactly. They never travelled through time without help from the future, so Kirk's Enterprise was the first ship to time-travel on its own. Cloaking devices have been penetrated and re-invented many times throughout history (which is how Spock could figure out how to pierce the Klingon cloak in TUC but Picard and his contemporaries couldn't see through the cloaks of that era). Archer's crew never knew the identity of the Borg (or Ferengi), and we had already learned that the first human contact with the Borg was made by the Hansen family years before "Q Who." And while we, the viewers, saw Archer's crew in an alternate universe, the Prime NX-01 crew never knew about it.
And don't forget, most of the stuff Kirk and Picard's crews did "first" were pre-empted by Star Trek Enterprise. Time travel, cloaking devices, the Borg, alternate universes...Archer's lot did it all first. So Kirk and co look like a dolts too, now
Well, not exactly. They never travelled through time without help from the future, so Kirk's Enterprise was the first ship to time-travel on its own. Cloaking devices have been penetrated and re-invented many times throughout history (which is how Spock could figure out how to pierce the Klingon cloak in TUC but Picard and his contemporaries couldn't see through the cloaks of that era). Archer's crew never knew the identity of the Borg (or Ferengi), and we had already learned that the first human contact with the Borg was made by the Hansen family years before "Q Who." And while we, the viewers, saw Archer's crew in an alternate universe, the Prime NX-01 crew never knew about it.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
I was 13 at the time so I thought it was neat-o!
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!
You never take a break,do you?
And don't forget, most of the stuff Kirk and Picard's crews did "first" were pre-empted by Star Trek Enterprise. Time travel, cloaking devices, the Borg, alternate universes...Archer's lot did it all first. So Kirk and co look like a dolts too, now
Well, not exactly. They never travelled through time without help from the future, so Kirk's Enterprise was the first ship to time-travel on its own. Cloaking devices have been penetrated and re-invented many times throughout history (which is how Spock could figure out how to pierce the Klingon cloak in TUC but Picard and his contemporaries couldn't see through the cloaks of that era). Archer's crew never knew the identity of the Borg (or Ferengi), and we had already learned that the first human contact with the Borg was made by the Hansen family years before "Q Who." And while we, the viewers, saw Archer's crew in an alternate universe, the Prime NX-01 crew never knew about it.
You never take a break,do you?
I read a very funny parody of TNG in a gaming magazine back when TNG was new. It was ostensibly a guide to role-playing in the TNG era (tongue firmly in cheek).
I remember that one column on the "generate a story randomly" tables was for the special hook for this episode, and one was "open admission that this entire story was ripped from an episode of TOS".
I seem to recall also that they gave Troi a fairly high score in "Sense painfully obvious, but ultimately useless, information".
I remember that one column on the "generate a story randomly" tables was for the special hook for this episode, and one was "open admission that this entire story was ripped from an episode of TOS".
I seem to recall also that they gave Troi a fairly high score in "Sense painfully obvious, but ultimately useless, information".
But also to be fair, Kirk's crew saved the galaxy's ass on numerous occasions.
Why SHOULDN'T people respect the guy a little?
Although, Christopher is quite correct, for the FIRST spinoff, the second episode was way way way too early to mention anything TOS-wise.
Why SHOULDN'T people respect the guy a little?
Although, Christopher is quite correct, for the FIRST spinoff, the second episode was way way way too early to mention anything TOS-wise.
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