The mystery of the Mintakans

[at Quark's]

In 'Who watches the watchers', Picard says:

Your own reports describe how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned all belief in the supernatural. And now you're asking me to sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition.

If they really did so millennia ago, one would expect such rationalism to be deeply ingrained in their culture and hence extremely hard to shake (off). Yet, they seem afwully inclined to re-adopt a belief in supernatural beings.

Why ?

(Also, I'm wondering about them still being at a bronze age technology level after all those rational and hence supposedly peaceful millennia. Periodic disasters ? ).

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Not every species progresses at the same way we do. And if they have a dew "dark ages" they might actually go backwards instead of progress.

I like to think of them as like people of national geographic find new islands with indigenous people there who have never seen or heard from the rest of civilization.

It also wouldn't be the first time Picard was a but hyperbolic in his use of language

 

[tafkats]

Star Trek tends to throw the thousands and millions around pretty casually, especially when it comes to the history of various civilizations, without thinking about the implications.

 

[marlboro]

Another silly part was that the scientist was 100% certain that a small community of aliens seeing a human would result in a new religion. Because, clearly, the only way a group of people who haven't been religious for thousands of years to respond to a slightly different looking humanoid is to found a new religion that will sweep the globe.

 

[at Quark's]

Another silly part was that the scientist was 100% certain that a small community of aliens seeing a human would result in a new religion. Because, clearly, the only way a group of people who haven't been religious for thousands of years to respond to a slightly different looking humanoid is to found a new religion that will sweep the globe.

To be fair, they didn't only see slightly differently looking humanoids, they also saw people being transported, and one of them saw sickbay....

 

[Ithekro]

One man and his miricles....

It is possible that the culture stagnated without a need to advance. If what they were doing was providing enough food and shelter for everyone and the population was stable. No natural distasters. No major conflicts. No territorial disputes with other tribes. There would be no real need to advanced technologically accept if people were bored and needed something to do to pass the time (invent to keep busy).

 

[marlboro]

Wouldn't it have been a lot more believable to just say that these were a highly superstitious people? They certainly behaved as if they were. From a storytelling point of view, I don't see the point of having characters say that they have been rational for thousands of years only to have them behave as if they were a primitive tribe.

Edit: and why send the injured alien back to the planet before you are sure that the memory removal process worked?

 

[T'Girl]

In 'Who watches the watchers', Picard says:

Your own reports describe ...

Explanation, Doctor Barron is a complete idiotic moron, who had no idea as to what he was reporting.

 

[Orphalesion]

Explanation, Doctor Barron is a complete idiotic moron, who had no idea as to what he was reporting.

It's a bit sad how many plot holes and inconsistencies of ST can be resolved with that explanation :-/

Apart from the idiocy of the millennia line, I don't like the idea that abandoning all forms of spirituality is a purely positive development.

 

[marlboro]

I don't like the idea that abandoning all forms of spirituality is a purely positive development.

I'm not religious at all, but for a show that is all about tolerance there seemed to be an exception when it came to religion. Well, sometimes. It was a bit schizophrenic on that point.

Off topic, but I really hated it in the early seasons when the characters would look down their noses at 20th century humans. I was watching "The Neutral Zone" last night and Dr Crusher delivers an incredulous line about the revived humans "being afraid of death." Like the people of the 24th century have evolved past the point of worrying about trifling things like death.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

, I don't like the idea that abandoning all forms of spirituality is a purely positive development.

What is spirituality? I've nevber heard a consistent definition of the word.

 

[at Quark's]

I'm not religious at all, but for a show that is all about tolerance there seemed to be an exception when it came to religion. Well, sometimes. It was a bit schizophrenic on that point.

AFAIK, "Who watches the watchers" was made when Roddenberry still had a quite strong influence on the show. I also know that he was involved in DS9's inception, but sometimes I wonder how he would have felt about the way it eventually turned out, especially in how it portrays religion and spirituality.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Edit: and why send the injured alien back to the planet before you are sure that the memory removal process worked?

Because if you let them wake up on the ship to see if the removal process worked, then you have to do the removal process over again anyway!

 

[Amaris]

Explanation, Doctor Barron is a complete idiotic moron, who had no idea as to what he was reporting.

It's a bit sad how many plot holes and inconsistencies of ST can be resolved with that explanation :-/

Apart from the idiocy of the millennia line, I don't like the idea that abandoning all forms of spirituality is a purely positive development.

As an agnostic, I love the idea behind an "all rational" society, if for nothing else than to see how it would work. That said, I do disagree with Picard's notion that having a spirituality is going backwards in social development. There are plenty of people in our own history who were religious, but were highly rational people, who did great things for the advancement of humanity.

 

[Orphalesion]

What is spirituality? I've nevber heard a consistent definition of the word.

I hope this doesn't doesn't the thread.

Apprently there is no consistent definition of that term, but it does relate to any faith-related activity and thought process/experiment that is not necessarily covered by organized religion.

But my honest-to-god answer to that question: "Spirituality" (in this case) is a nice-sounding neologism for the use of people like me to whom faith is a driving force in their live, but who are not bible thumping zealots, and don't want to say "religion" in order to distance themselves from the nice folks who built the Creationist Museum

As an agnostic, I love the idea behind an "all rational" society, if for nothing else than to see how it would work. That said, I do disagree with Picard's notion that having a spirituality is going backwards in social development. There are plenty of people in our own history who were religious, but were highly rational people, who did great things for the advancement of humanity.

It is an interesting thought experiment. But I think I'm not even sure everybody would agree what a "completely rational" society would be. Like to me that would mean a society that has even abandoned stuff like philosophy.

And yes that's the way I see it too, religion/spirituality is a tool just like everything else its on each person how to use it. In the past organized faith has both helped and harmed humanity's advancement.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm not religious at all, but for a show that is all about tolerance there seemed to be an exception when it came to religion. Well, sometimes. It was a bit schizophrenic on that point.

AFAIK, "Who watches the watchers" was made when Roddenberry still had a quite strong influence on the show. I also know that he was involved in DS9's inception, but sometimes I wonder how he would have felt about the way it eventually turned out, especially in how it portrays religion and spirituality.

I don't think he had anything to do with DS9's inception.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm having a hard time getting riled up by this episode. My faith is very important to me, but this ep is not a threat to that faith. It's just another instance of Picard being pretentious and (pardon the pun) preachy. In the end, it's harmless!

 

[E-DUB]

To me the mystery of the Mitakans was their Vulcanic appearance. Are they yet another offshoot of some Vulcan diaspora? Or is it just a case of another unrelated race that looks Vulcan, just as so many ST races looked like garden-variety H Sap?

 

[Orphalesion]

^Yes, Mr. Laser Beam, you are of course right, I can and do still watch that episode and thought the idea of Bronze Age (Or was it neolithic?) Vulcans was kinda neat. I even enjoyed the conversation Picard had with the female Mintakan about how sufficiently advanced technology=magic to a more primitive society.
Just that one line always makes me roll my eyes.

To me the mystery of the Mitakans was their Vulcanic appearance. Are they yet another offshoot of some Vulcan diaspora? Or is it just a case of another unrelated race that looks Vulcan, just as so many ST races looked like garden-variety H Sap?

I think that is the implication in the episode. Personally I have a little pet theory that they are an off-shot of the Romulans left behind on Mintaka during the Exodus who have fallen back into more primitive ways.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It also wouldn't be the first time Picard was a but

Here, here!

What is spirituality? I've nevber heard a consistent definition of the word.

Spirituality is a concern for things that can influence one's spirit (or deepest attitude/being), such as meditation or music or things that induce altered states of consciousness or even pep rallies. Those with a belief in a religion or in similar theological concepts will, of course, extend that spiritual concern in that direction, to such things as their relationship with some god or gods, or progress toward Nirvana, or joyously partaking of a hot dog on Fridays.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being spiritual, or even believing in things that fall outside of the realm of scientific proof/disproof. I personally do not hold with *organized* religions that allow a mortal, fallible person (which we ALL are) to have control over another person's spirituality. But aside from that, I think that Picard takes his atheism a bit too far sometimes.