Part I set the bar pretty high for this followup, and fortunately, it mostly delivers. The old footage is not only pretty great in its own right, but put to excellent use within the current story. It is interesting that Spock felt it appropriate to decide on Pike's behalf that the rest of his life would be better lived in illusion, but I guess all that really matters is that by our tale's end, Pike is in agreement. Whereas Part I was much more about Spock and Kirk, Part II is mostly Pike's hour; both of these are strong stories, and they are tied together well. It's great to see the second part was able to rise to the narrative challenges set by the first.
The Menagerie, Part II
- Thread starter Mendon
- Start date
You have to realizeit was the idea of the TALOSIANS to bring Pike back to Talos IV.
Remember, in Part One, the whole 'dialogue' between Spock and the disabled Pike, is quite bizarre (if you can consider PIke's beeping no 'dialogue' lol)-
SPOCK: you know why I've come here
*PIKE BEEPS NO*
SPOCK: I have it well planned it is only four (or whatever)light days away at maximum warp
*PIKE BEEPS NO*
SPOCK: Yes, I know...it is treachery...it is mutiny....but I have no choice!
One suspects thar Spock's 'cooperation' with the Talosians was not 100% voluntary...
My only questions have been -
why didn't the Talosians simply create a phony communique from Starfleet directing Enterprise to SB 11?? This way they would no tbe questioning Sock's honesty. There still would the 'mystery' of a phony message, and Spock could have volunteered togo see if he could 'help' down in the communications lab, brandishing his A7 computer ranking.
And why does Spock look so shocked when they discover the base shuttle following? Was not the whole idea to a) have the court martial so the ship would GET to Talos while b) showing the images of the original Talos encounter to Mendez (and Starfleet), so SF would realize that the whole thing was truly a mission of mercy for a Starfleet hero??? This is basically what The Keeper tells Kirk, and that the Keeper and Spock had apparently discussed the whole thing! and Kirk even asks Spock, why he didn't come him for help. Yet in Part One, Spock acts like he was just going to take Pike to Talos and then face the consquences, with the turning around for the shuttle being an 'alternate plan'...
Also it would be interesting to postulate what happened on SB 11 during all of this. Was Mendez thinking that Kirk was chasing after his ship alone? How did the Talosians get Mendez (and Starfleet I am assuming) to watch the transmission? I wonder if the Talosians actually had the base personnel believe Mendez had gone with Kirk, and then 'isolated' him, so he had to watch EVERYthing that was going on - including all the action onboard the Enterprise, including the 'court martial'?
Enterprise supposedly receives a transmission from SF, where they are told they are to stop receiving the Talos transmissions, disable the ship if necessary, and that Kirk is releived...one wonders if this was another distraction to delay them from gaining control of the ship..
I realize that a lot of this was done for dramatic effect, and also that Rodenberry wrote the 'envelope' in fairly record time. BUT - I also am an unabashed fan of this episode, as some of the acting and directing is as good as the show ever got - especially those last five minutes after the transmission ends - there simply has NEVER been a better tag to ANY Trek episode....except maybe All Good Things....maybe...
(One has to wonder, though, what Uhura is thinking when she gets a transmission from SB 11..signed by a Commodore who is theoretically on the ship already
)
Remember, in Part One, the whole 'dialogue' between Spock and the disabled Pike, is quite bizarre (if you can consider PIke's beeping no 'dialogue' lol)-
SPOCK: you know why I've come here
*PIKE BEEPS NO*
SPOCK: I have it well planned it is only four (or whatever)light days away at maximum warp
*PIKE BEEPS NO*
SPOCK: Yes, I know...it is treachery...it is mutiny....but I have no choice!
One suspects thar Spock's 'cooperation' with the Talosians was not 100% voluntary...
My only questions have been -
why didn't the Talosians simply create a phony communique from Starfleet directing Enterprise to SB 11?? This way they would no tbe questioning Sock's honesty. There still would the 'mystery' of a phony message, and Spock could have volunteered togo see if he could 'help' down in the communications lab, brandishing his A7 computer ranking.
And why does Spock look so shocked when they discover the base shuttle following? Was not the whole idea to a) have the court martial so the ship would GET to Talos while b) showing the images of the original Talos encounter to Mendez (and Starfleet), so SF would realize that the whole thing was truly a mission of mercy for a Starfleet hero??? This is basically what The Keeper tells Kirk, and that the Keeper and Spock had apparently discussed the whole thing! and Kirk even asks Spock, why he didn't come him for help. Yet in Part One, Spock acts like he was just going to take Pike to Talos and then face the consquences, with the turning around for the shuttle being an 'alternate plan'...
Also it would be interesting to postulate what happened on SB 11 during all of this. Was Mendez thinking that Kirk was chasing after his ship alone? How did the Talosians get Mendez (and Starfleet I am assuming) to watch the transmission? I wonder if the Talosians actually had the base personnel believe Mendez had gone with Kirk, and then 'isolated' him, so he had to watch EVERYthing that was going on - including all the action onboard the Enterprise, including the 'court martial'?
Enterprise supposedly receives a transmission from SF, where they are told they are to stop receiving the Talos transmissions, disable the ship if necessary, and that Kirk is releived...one wonders if this was another distraction to delay them from gaining control of the ship..
I realize that a lot of this was done for dramatic effect, and also that Rodenberry wrote the 'envelope' in fairly record time. BUT - I also am an unabashed fan of this episode, as some of the acting and directing is as good as the show ever got - especially those last five minutes after the transmission ends - there simply has NEVER been a better tag to ANY Trek episode....except maybe All Good Things....maybe...
(One has to wonder, though, what Uhura is thinking when she gets a transmission from SB 11..signed by a Commodore who is theoretically on the ship already
)I don't buy the idea that Spock was acting under influence of the Talosians. It's conceivable that he was acting upon their recommendation, but the coercion theory is troublesome both because we know that control by the Talosians extends only so far, and that Starbase 11 is outside that range, but moreover because it robs Spock of the purported righteousness in his cause. He is no longer acting out of loyalty to an old commander, but is rather the servant of an alien intelligence, for better or worse.
While we're on the subject, I think it becomes clear in this second half that the story told through flashback is markedly stronger than the framing narrative. Like you said, the framing narrative was written rather quickly; it's imperative, however, that Pike's story, no matter how strong it is on its own merits, be integrated well into the current adventure. That's achieved brilliantly in the first half, but is lost somewhat when Pike's story takes center stage in Part II. More than anything else, I chalk that up to insufficient development of Spock's motives - but while your proposal that he was acting under influence of the Talosians might be a perfectly sensible one, it does even less to make these past events truly meaningful for our heroes.
All that said, Pike's really is a terrific story, and the framing device is still quite clever if a little underwritten, so I continue to rank this among Trek's stronger adventures.
While we're on the subject, I think it becomes clear in this second half that the story told through flashback is markedly stronger than the framing narrative. Like you said, the framing narrative was written rather quickly; it's imperative, however, that Pike's story, no matter how strong it is on its own merits, be integrated well into the current adventure. That's achieved brilliantly in the first half, but is lost somewhat when Pike's story takes center stage in Part II. More than anything else, I chalk that up to insufficient development of Spock's motives - but while your proposal that he was acting under influence of the Talosians might be a perfectly sensible one, it does even less to make these past events truly meaningful for our heroes.
All that said, Pike's really is a terrific story, and the framing device is still quite clever if a little underwritten, so I continue to rank this among Trek's stronger adventures.
I’m a big fan of this episode; I think it’s one of the entire series’ most interesting offerings.
Here’s the way I see it playing out “behind the scenes”:
*Spock is well aware of Pike’s injuries before they initially beam down to Starbase 11; in fact, he’s already contacted the Talosians and asked for their help. They probably agreed because Vina was sad and lonely.
*Spock hijacked the Enterprise but was not counting on the shuttle following them. The Talosians had already figured it out, though, and pulled a double-illusion trick on Kirk and Mendez: Kirk saw Mendez in the shuttle with him, and Mendez stayed on the Starbase with an illusion of Kirk.
*The whole idea of a shuttlecraft being able to catch up with the Enterprise (at maximum warp!) is ludicrous, and Kirk should know better. What was he thinking? Oh, I guess he was thinking exactly what would happen; he knew Spock would detect the shuttle and wouldn't let him die out there.
*Only the fact of having Kirk on board gave Spock the opportunity to show the “flashbacks”. Spock, I believe, thought Mendez (and the court-martial) was the real thing (at least at this point). Otherwise, why would he go through the whole court-martial proceeding?
*What is not open for debate is that the Talosians’ powers of illusion are really powerful; they can project them over enormous distances (Talos IV is four days away from Starbase 11 at maximum warp; that’s a long way!). This makes the Talosians a much, much greater threat to the Federation than previously thought. They could conceivably control this entire sector of space if they wanted to. Maybe Spock’s offer to deliver Pike to them was a bribe to keep them from messing with the Federation any more. But if their powers were really that dramatic, why even bring Pike to Talos IV? They could have given him the illusion of youth and health right there at the starbase.
*Of course, then we wouldn’t have had a cool episode of Star Trek.
Here’s the way I see it playing out “behind the scenes”:
*Spock is well aware of Pike’s injuries before they initially beam down to Starbase 11; in fact, he’s already contacted the Talosians and asked for their help. They probably agreed because Vina was sad and lonely.
*Spock hijacked the Enterprise but was not counting on the shuttle following them. The Talosians had already figured it out, though, and pulled a double-illusion trick on Kirk and Mendez: Kirk saw Mendez in the shuttle with him, and Mendez stayed on the Starbase with an illusion of Kirk.
*The whole idea of a shuttlecraft being able to catch up with the Enterprise (at maximum warp!) is ludicrous, and Kirk should know better. What was he thinking? Oh, I guess he was thinking exactly what would happen; he knew Spock would detect the shuttle and wouldn't let him die out there.
*Only the fact of having Kirk on board gave Spock the opportunity to show the “flashbacks”. Spock, I believe, thought Mendez (and the court-martial) was the real thing (at least at this point). Otherwise, why would he go through the whole court-martial proceeding?
*What is not open for debate is that the Talosians’ powers of illusion are really powerful; they can project them over enormous distances (Talos IV is four days away from Starbase 11 at maximum warp; that’s a long way!). This makes the Talosians a much, much greater threat to the Federation than previously thought. They could conceivably control this entire sector of space if they wanted to. Maybe Spock’s offer to deliver Pike to them was a bribe to keep them from messing with the Federation any more. But if their powers were really that dramatic, why even bring Pike to Talos IV? They could have given him the illusion of youth and health right there at the starbase.
*Of course, then we wouldn’t have had a cool episode of Star Trek.
Hambone, I think yours is a generally very good reading, but I maintain that the action on the Starbase 11 occurred without Talosian influence for several reasons, primarily because Spock would have had no need to lead a mutiny if the Talosians could have provided illusions to bring Pike to them in the first place. No matter where you fall on this issue there are bound to be sticking points, but for me, it seems most reasonable that the Talosians could only influence them from within a certain range, beginning specifically at the moment when Kirk is confronted unexpectedly by Mendez in the shuttle, by this point likely within a day's travel of Talos IV.
Yeah - I love this two-parter. The opening installment set up an intriguing and dramatic storyline; this second half is, as observed by others here, more a reshowing of The Cage. That in itself is no great tragedy as it's a fantastic episode (one of my favourites) even though the eventual conclusion does seem rather predictable. Even so, it's one of the better ones and anything that goes back to show a previous, hitherto unseen, adventure gains points for offering a new discovery. When I first saw this I was gobsmacked to learn that Kirk wasn't the first commander of the Enterprise: it opened a whole new world of possibilities and untold tales for me...
Basically, Orcus, I think the framing device could have been total garbage and this episode would still be redeemed by the strength of The Cage as a story. Now I don't think the framing device is garbage by any standard, but I don't think it's as strong as The Cage material, which is admittedly a pretty high bar to set. To be fair, though, Part I set the expectation threshold pretty high for the conclusion of our framing story as well.
Oh, I agree entirely with your assessment of The Cage: it's perhaps one of the best pieces of telefantasy around and explores some of the great things about human nature. I'd put it close* to Forbidden Planet (and, by extension, The Tempest) in terms of existentialist examination of the human condition.
* I use the word with caution...
Its obvious that the Talosian Mendez was in the shuttle from the get-go! The Keeper tells Kirk that at the end - "The presence of Commodore Mendez in the shuttle and on board your ship was simply an illusion. Mr Spock had related to us your strength of will, and it was thought the illusion of a court martial would keep you from too soon regaining control of your ship." I still think the 'real' Mendez 'sequestered' by the Talosians, with his staff thinking he went with Kirk. This way, the Talosians could show Mendez, who is a decent man, who obviously cares about Pike, the whole thing - phony court martial and all, while explaining to him what they want. this would keep the contact 'contamination' to a minimum, and this way when Enterprise reaches Talos, they could 'readjust' the memories of the SB 11 staff, so Mendez can get Spock off the whatever charges. Notice his transmission comes right after the phony Mendez disappears. They might do that for the Enterprise crew, also, so there aren't a million questions - that way Uhura getting a message from Mendez, wen she thinks he is aboard ship is not a big
in her head. The Enterprise crew probably just remembers Kirk coming alone in the SB 11 shuttle..and there being no court martial - this way Scotty, McCoy , the yeoman and the security people aren't contaminated by any knowledge of Talos IV or the unusually detailed transmisson.As far as the scope of the Talosians power is concerned - don't forget that in The Cage, they specifically looked for Vina's 'dream man" - until they found Pike. that mustve entailed some looking through the galaxy! And they were easily able to send the illusion of a phony distress message specifically to the Enterprise, when it was several parsecs away. Spock does mention that the Talosians contacted him about Pike - Kirk had no clue about what had happened, as the ship had been on deep patrol. So the Enterprise was further away from Talos than SB 11 when they 'contacted' Spock - and I am sure they didnt send him a telegram!
As far as Spock acting jumpy and having to 'switch tapes'' and such in Part 1, that was all probably part of the ruse..
And by the way....Part Two of The Menagerie was the highest rated episode ever of TOS during its first run on NBC..its a wonder they didn't try to do more two parters...
