The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Nakita Akita]

I suppose it is easy to think that [insert group name here]'s welfare doesn't matter if they are ruled to be less than human. It's been tried before.

Yea, like toasters.
I think most people have had to toss out their toaster or maybe even a blender because it just didn't cut it any longer.
Why must more be read into it?
If he was determined to be a machine, after a machine doesn't function any longer it gets scrapped out, used for target practice, cut up for parts, smashed up and recycled.
Please, do you hold a funeral for your candy bar wrappers?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Let's not get ridiculous here. Everyone knows Data is a sentient being. He's much more than a toaster or a gum wrapper.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Wow. Okay. I'm very sorry @Nakita Akita , but this time, I am not liking what I'm reading at all...Could you please stop it with the toaster analogy ? This feels very offensive for us faithful Data fans.

 

[Marynator]

If my toaster was intelligent and self aware and communicated with me, I sure would treat him differently! For starters I'd only toast my bread in him if I had his full consent.

 

[DonIago]

The thing I find interesting about this is how easy it is to pile on Maddox (maybe too easy given the actor's performance (intentional?)), but if we were to look at it from his perspective...or if you prefer someone even less familiar with Data...what do we have then? Someone who's heard that the E-D has a mechanical man who's incredibly efficient, stronger and faster than (many) living beings, and could be a tremendous asset if he could be copied.

Heck, when TNG was in pre-production (and maybe later) I'm sure there were people who thought "Oh cool, the Enterprise has a robot on it now. Wait, does that mean other ships have robots too? Awesome!"

 

[Nakita Akita]

Let's not get ridiculous here. Everyone knows Data is a sentient being. He's much more than a toaster or a gum wrapper.

I'm not saying HE IS a toaster!
I'm saying what if THEY had determined him to be one?

Sure we've all seen the episode 30 times but when you saw it the first time, you didn't know what they were going to determine.

I don't think he is a toaster. But the guy in the episode thought he was and wanted to take him apart etc.

My beef is that everyone wants to make something out of a "SLAVE RACE."
I think THAT was a dumb part of the episode, That everyone wants to focus on.

 

[Marynator]

Well I think we have someone like today who feels he is well meaning but isn't woke and doesn't realize he has unconscious bias. So many people are unaware they are really sexist or racist, and this episode is like a parable to help us see clearly what that's like through exaggeration. Mr. Maddox learns at the end that Data is a fully equal being, just like hopefully today people will learn the same thing about women and minorities.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Wow. Okay. I'm very sorry @Nakita Akita , but this time, I am not liking what I'm reading at all...Could you please stop it with the toaster analogy ? This feels very offensive for us faithful Data fans.

He's not a toaster. But like I said above everyone gets all into the Slave Race thing which is just as dumb as the toaster thing.

I think the Slave Race thing in the episode wasn't necessary. I think Picard, could figure all of that out on his own.

 

[JesterFace]

This was the first TNG episode I ever saw and it hooked me immediately.

Great way to get into TNG, perhaps the best episode from the first two seasons.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think he is a toaster. But the guy in the episode thought he was and wanted to take him apart etc.

I fear we're overlooking a few things here. Such as:

- Maddox was the ONLY member of the review board who voted against Data's admissibility into Starfleet (because Maddox believed that Data was not sentient)

- As we saw in the episode, Maddox changed his mind, and began to regard Data as sentient like everyone else did long ago

- The court case in this episode was NEVER about Data's sentience. That had already been decided. (If it had not, then Data would never have been allowed to join Starfleet in the first place.)

- The question of a slave race isn't something that can just be glossed over. It's central to the plot and themes of the entire episode. Because if Maddox had won this case, and somehow been able to reconstruct an army of Soong-type androids, that is exactly what he would get - an entire race of android slaves, who nobody would have to care about.

 

[Skipper]

I don't like to use the word "soul", I find it tendentious and much less accurate than "sentient" for example, though "self-aware" is even better.

Me too. They weren't searching for a "soul" (what is it?!?). They were trying to determine if he had the same rights as all sentient beings. And I never understood the hurry that they showed in the episode. They couldn't wait for someone who wasn't deeply involved to act as a defense lawyer or a prosecutor?

 

[Discofan]

Me too. They weren't searching for a "soul" (what is it?!?). They were trying to determine if he had the same rights as all sentient beings. And I never understood the hurry that they showed in the episode. They couldn't wait for someone who wasn't deeply involved to act as a defense lawyer or a prosecutor?

I never understood how ownership of Data was established in the first place. I am guessing that even in the Star Trek world, you can't just claim "This is mine" without some legitimacy to your claim, like when and where was the act of ownership decided, by whom and for what reason. Data was initially Soong's creation and therefore implicitly property. How can SF claim property without Soong having some say in the matter?

How could Data as a sentient being become the property of Star Fleet without being made aware of it? And if he was aware of it then why didn't he protest then instead of waiting for such a crisis to happen?

 

[Skipper]

I never understood how ownership of Data was established in the first place.

Finder keeper? Probably they believed that everyone involved with his (its?) creation was dead so he automatically become property of Star Fleet.

 

[Herbert]

Wow. Okay. I'm very sorry @Nakita Akita , but this time, I am not liking what I'm reading at all...Could you please stop it with the toaster analogy ? This feels very offensive for us faithful Data fans.

You're seriously getting offended at a discussion about a fictional character on a TV show?

 

[Discofan]

Data himself didn't think of himself as deserving of sentient rights. He disconnected his brother and told him that he'd be dismantled without a trial. Had he done that to a sentient being he would have been himself put on trial for that, which according to Data's logic would be superfluous as he should just be dismantled.

 

[Vger23]

This may be the most overrated hour in the entire franchise.

 

[Mojochi]

He disconnected his brother and told him that he'd be dismantled without a trial. Had he done that to a sentient being he would have been himself put on trial for that.

#1, He never said that to Lore. #2, Data has done exactly that to a number of humanoid lifeforms, the most notable example he almost did it to being Fajo. He intended to kill Fajo (Rightly so imho) & he similarly deactivated Lore, which isn't killing btw. Even dismantling Lore is not a death sentence. They found him dismantled, remember? I always expected Data to fix Lore, once he had learned enough to create more Soong androids. Why does everybody assume this is the death of Lore? It may end the era of his horrific reanimation, but he is not destroyed

Plus, Data must certainly have considered himself sentient & worthy of the rights thereof. He was the sole supporter of the Excocomps, on those grounds. (Which btw, if the 24th century had toasters... I think they'd probably look like exocomps, So take that Louvois. Toasters can be sentient too)

Anyhow, that Data deactivates Lore is not an indictment on android sentience or rights. Lore was an ongoing, wholly criminal threat, & nothing short of what was done would've stopped him from being an active one

Let's not forget that Maddox wanted to do more than just disassemble Data. The objectionable part was the core dump of his entire memory & cognitive function, for which he hadn't resolved the hurdle of the "electron resistance across the neural filaments"

He was going to wipe Data. Nobody is planning to do that to Lore

 

[Discofan]

#1, He never said that to Lore. #2, Data has done exactly that to a number of humanoid lifeforms, the most notable example he almost did it to being Fajo. He intended to kill Fajo (Rightly so imho) & he similarly deactivated Lore, which isn't killing btw. Even dismantling Lore is not a death sentence. They found him dismantled, remember? I always expected Data to fix Lore, once he had learned enough to create more Soong androids. Why does everybody assume this is the death of Lore? It may end the era of his horrific reanimation, but he is not destroyed

Plus, Data must certainly have considered himself sentient & worthy of the rights thereof. He was the sole supporter of the Excocomps, on those grounds. (Which btw, if the 24th century had toasters... I think they'd probably look like exocomps, So take that Louvois. Toasters can be sentient too)

Anyhow, that Data deactivates Lore is not an indictment on android sentience or rights. Lore was an ongoing, wholly criminal threat, & nothing short of what was done would've stopped him from being an active one

Let's not forget that Maddox wanted to do more than just disassemble Data. The objectionable part was the core dump of his entire memory & cognitive function, for which he hadn't resolved the hurdle of the "electron resistance across the neural filaments"

He was going to wipe Data. Nobody is planning to do that to Lore

I remember someone telling Data that if he had done something he'd have been stripped down to his wires to see what was wrong with him. However, I don't remember whom (I am thinking... Picard?) nor why.

I need to rewatch some TNG episodes. Haven't done it for a long time for some of them.

 

[DonIago]

That was "Clues", where there's a preponderance of evidence that Data isn't being honest with Our Heroes, and it's later revealed that Picard specifically ordered Data not to be honest with them.

Sort of the HAL 9000 scenario.

 

[Marynator]

Yes that was definitely Captain Picard in Clues! He was very angry because Data was being absolutely infuriating in his mind, but I really don't think he meant that literally, I feel he was speaking figuratively, because Mr Data could have been in ever so much trouble for disobeying orders like he seemed to be doing.

I feel that @Mojochi made so many wonderful points, it is difficult to add much more, except I believe in Descent that Lore was actually pretty badly injured? So Data might have had to deactivate him anyway for repairs, but just wouldn't really have to do them for a while. I like to think that one day in the future Data would learn how to fix Lore, like what Dr Soong said he wanted to do in Brothers, and Lore could be rehabilitated.

 

[Mojochi]

I remember someone telling Data that if he had done something he'd have been stripped down to his wires to see what was wrong with him. However, I don't remember whom (I am thinking... Picard?) nor why.

Yup. Picard in "Clues". It's a good point. I've always been a little troubled by that remark myself, but like @Marynator said above, there might be some hidden intent going on in that remark. I don't figure we're meant to think that Picard supports this kind of action taken against Data. #1, I feel like he's at a loss with Data, because Data seems so calm & unemotional about what he's accused of. The natural reaction is to think someone might not be taking the matter seriously, so they throw out a severe threat, which they don't really mean, but they're just trying to shock the other person. #2, there is some history to suggest that Starfleet has a tendency to not treat Data with the same respect for his rights. There probably is some admirals out there that would want to pull Data apart if they thought he'd caused people harm

I interpret Picard's statement like this "Hey! You know, Starfleet tried to pull you apart before, & you hadn't done anything wrong. What do you think they might do if you cause your crewmates harm?" He's not condoning it, but is expressing his concern about the possibility, just in case Data had not thought about it (Even though I'm sure he had)