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The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

Not that I'm aware of, although it's quite the coincidence that in the TOS episode, Court Martial, the ideal lawyer to defend Kirk just happens to be right there. ;)
Ahhh, yes, the great Samuel T. Cogley esq. What a great character. There used to be a very active member here by that name. I wonder where he went.
 
I just rewatched the first part of the episode and they don't really give any good reason why they can't just postpone the thing, waiting from some expert from earth or whatever. And I have to say forcing someone for some nebulous reason to demonstrate that a friend of his can be send to the equivalent of a death sentence is borderline psychotic.
 
Perhaps litigation is so rare in the futuristic world that they don't need people to be permanent lawyers anymore, IOW all lawyers are occasional ones. Just like today if you need your shoes to be shined, you do it yourself.
 
In the episode it seemed Data’s objection was not Maddux’s research itself but belief his methods would be harmful to him. If he had been ordered to participate in research that didn’t involve being deconstructed and reverse engineered he would not have fought it.
 
In the episode it seemed Data’s objection was not Maddux’s research itself but belief his methods would be harmful to him. If he had been ordered to participate in research that didn’t involve being deconstructed and reverse engineered he would not have fought it.
The hearing was to decide if Data is Starfleet property or a sentient being, and if he has the right to choose to resign (because the only way for Data to evade the order to undergo the procedure was to resign).

What wasn't clear in the episode is:

1) Why they were in such a hurry. Once the JAG agreed to the hearing, they could just wait for some expert or something similar. There was no a time window for the procedure or whatever, so, yes, Maddox would be a little frustrated, but we are talking about the life of someone who everyone on the Enterprise considered a sentient being.

2) For twenty years Data has been treated as a sentient being (with all related rights). He had a career. A ranks. He could give commands to subordinates. A evaluation committee (composed by experts, I suppose) decided that he could attend the Star Fleet Academy. He was de facto considered a sentient being (if not de jure). Now someone (who clearly had no experience in the field of Artificial Intelligence or whatever) decided that it was all some kind of joke and Data had no more rights than a lamp (remember, before the hearing the JAG decided that the Maddox's request had merit) opening the way (like Guinan had said) for the creation of a slave race.
 
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1) I think the only reasonable defense there is concern that Data would pose a flight risk, though obviously that's not verbalized during the episode.

2) Sadly, it wouldn't be the first time in history that someone who had been treated as having the right to self-determination was subsequently stripped of that right.
 
1) I think the only reasonable defense there is concern that Data would pose a flight risk, though obviously that's not verbalized during the episode.
This is the only vaguely acceptable explanation. So why didn't they put him in a brig or use an ankle monitor or whatever? There was some kind of countdown? "Hurry, if we don't end this hearing as soon as possible, he will run away!"

2) Sadly, it wouldn't be the first time in history that someone who had been treated as having the right to self-determination was subsequently stripped of that right.
Sadly, you are right. But we are talking about the "enlighted" Federation here so...

ETA. Still, it was strange that none mentioned this point in the episode: "Errr, you know that he was declared a sentient being by a panel of experts, right?"
 
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Oh I don't believe for one second they'd fear Data would run, he is just so incapable of doing something like that. I don't feel they'd fear flight from any officer, and Mr Data is an exceptional case of integrity.

I feel the simplest explanation is they just wanted to have a beautiful drama episode featuring their wonderful actors to address a metaphorical scenario we the audience could think about and how its implications might affect our view of our world. I feel they did this so splendidly, and I'd hate to ruin it by nitpicking over legal details that don't really seem relevant. I feel we can just accept they're living in a culture of advanced values and equality, so we don't have to worry about hierarchical legal structures and classism, but they've always got to be vigilant so they don't slip back to how our world used to be (or is still for many of us!).
 
I feel they did this so splendidly, and I'd hate to ruin it by nitpicking over legal details that don't really seem relevant.
Not nitpicking over a Star Trek episode?!?!

NEVER!!!! :klingon:

By the way, I really like this episode, so nitpicking is just a proof that I gave it a lot of thought. ;)
 
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Oh I do so love talking to death about the finer details! I just worry I'll ruin my enjoyment if I'm negatively picking it apart to completely dissect every little detail showing how it just couldn't work?
 
I just wish that someone would've said to the JAG something like "You know that everyone in the Federation (except Mr. Maddox here) considered Data a sentient being FOR TWENTY YEARS? And you are saying that everyone was wrong without even talking with him or consulting an expert on the matter? Are you sure you don't want to give thought to this for a little bit longer?" :o
 
I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, but just as on the BBS, I suspect there are a lot of people even in the 24th century who a) have no idea who Data is and/or b) wouldn't consider him anything more than the sum of his programming.

Put another way, I don't think there's anything wrong with fundamentally questioning whether Data really is sentient, I just take issue with the dual assumptions that a) he isn't, and b) can therefore be treated as property...because what if those people are wrong?
 
I just wish that someone would've said to the JAG something like "You know that everyone in the Federation (except Mr. Maddox here) considered Data a sentient being FOR TWENTY YEARS? And you are saying that everyone was wrong without even talking with him or consulting an expert on the matter? Are you sure you don't want to give thought to this for a little bit longer?" :o
Okay, but then the episode would have only been about 12 minutes long!:ack:
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Perhaps Maddox feared that his case was so weak he would almost certainly lose if the matter was dragged on and on. He manipulated the system the get a fast "trial" so he would have a better chance at winning as there were no experts to defend Data and he was "the prosecutor".
 
Perhaps Maddox feared that his case was so weak he would almost certainly lose if the matter was dragged on and on. He manipulated the system the get a fast "trial" so he would have a better chance at winning as there were no experts to defend Data and he was "the prosecutor".
I tend to look at the rush to trial like that too. This Maddox business wasn't born out of nothing. He's been at this a long time, not just the research application part, but the getting his hands on Data part. He had to know that the only likely way he'd ever achieve his goal is by getting into Data's circuits. My guess is that the abruptness of their visit was done deliberately. The whole Nakamura attitude of "Cmdr. Maddox is here to work on your android." just has a ring of being settled already, somewhere long before they stepped aboard. Maddox has finally got a working model he wants to move ahead with, made his presentation to Starfleet, & knew if it was viable enough, he'd get the green light, & would have the full backing of a Starfleet branch behind him

There is possibly even a hint of likelihood to the thought that since Maddox was on the evaluation committee that admitted Data into the Academy, he backed off his objections solely so they COULD establish dominion over him at a later time. It would be kind of hard to claim him as property if he'd never joined Starfleet. So you let him in

So it's possible that it took Maddox all this time to build a viable enough prototype, to warrant making their claim to using Data, & knowing that Data might object to experimental work on him, they set it up in this place & time deliberately, so they could sneak it through, & quite frankly, they almost did. No one would've expected such a compassionate response from Picard, even Louvois comments on how out of character it seems to be for him, before he jumps down her throat about it

This has the smell of a setup, from top to bottom, & Picard/ Riker/ Data & Louvois are just pawns they expected to play their part, & just let it fly under the radar. Hell, there were times even Data almost caved, & Picard had to encourage him to stand his ground. Why the rush? Because they know they're running a gambit here, & trying to hide behind rank & protocol to slip one by. They missed

Oh I do so love talking to death about the finer details! I just worry I'll ruin my enjoyment if I'm negatively picking it apart to completely dissect every little detail showing how it just couldn't work?
I'm willing to run that risk, to the point where a mod might have to just ask me to give it a rest now & then lol

The reason being, I've gotten really profound interpretations of the characters, the premises, & the show from deconstructing it quite minutely. There are conclusions about them, especially Data, that I might never have come to, if I'd just written things off as production glitches, or writer inconsistencies, or even actor errors, etc...

It's because I scrutinize this show's details, that I'm usually able to come up with workable reasons why a thing can be explained that wasn't. (Like above) Some times it works for me. Some times not so much

Characters with great inconsistencies, like Riker, or ones that are easily dismissed, like Jellico, take on a whole new dynamic when you deconstruct what is shown, & compare it to reality. What would be the point of this show, if it didn't relate to our reality somehow? Some times it's hard to reconcile & sometimes it isn't, & ultimately, when I scrutinize it so much, that's what my main goal is. Try to make the show work, even when it doesn't
 
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