The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Skipper]

Perhaps Starfleet high brass didn't even know the dangers of the procedure. They probably thought it was something akin to a thorough medical examination: a slightly unpleasant but risk-free thing.

 

[Mojochi]

Perhaps Starfleet high brass didn't even know the dangers of the procedure. They probably thought it was something akin to a thorough medical examination: a slightly unpleasant but risk-free thing.

But Maddox almost certainly did. His response when Data questioned him about it, seemed forced, like he knew it was a pretty big hurdle, & just didn't want to draw too much attention to it, in the hope that they could just go ahead without too much fanfare about it

 

[Marynator]

I'm willing to run that risk, to the point where a mod might have to just ask me to give it a rest now & then lol

The reason being, I've gotten really profound interpretations of the characters, the premises, & the show from deconstructing it quite minutely. There are conclusions about them, especially Data, that I might never have come to, if I'd just written things off as production glitches, or writer inconsistencies, or even actor errors, etc...

It's because I scrutinize this show's details, that I'm usually able to come up with workable reasons why a thing can be explained that wasn't. (Like above) Some times it works for me. Some times not so much

Characters with great inconsistencies, like Riker, or ones that are easily dismissed, like Jellico, take on a whole new dynamic when you deconstruct what is shown, & compare it to reality. What would be the point of this show, if it didn't relate to our reality somehow? Some times it's hard to reconcile & sometimes it isn't, & ultimately, when I scrutinize it so much, that's what my main goal is. Try to make the show work, even when it doesn't

Oh dear, well I guess I can understand that, I just try not to nitpick to the level where I won't enjoy it anymore, lol.

I mean, I do love dissecting literature, so I guess I really do understand, except when it comes to glitches or errors, like with Data's occasional contractions. That one I really feel is just a simple mistake, and I'll let that go. But you're right, with episodes like The Measure of a Man, I do feel we can take some insights into Federation society, and for me I feel the big one is there really does appear to be a decentralization, but most people seem to not agree with me and feel they're still supposed to submit to a higher class of authority? I guess too sometimes I look at an episode and feel it's more of a parable, that I'm not supposed to worry too much about the specific details but rather the general message, what the writers are trying to tell me and really make me think about. I don't feel that The Measure of a Man is really about Data and Starfleet, but it's supposed to make me reflect on how I view and respect life? I guess I felt if I worry too much about little details while I'm watching I might miss the bigger picture.

I feel Maddox was over eager, and he certainly had doubts I'm sure, but he was ignoring them and was in denial so he could just push through with his work. Don't we all feel that way sometimes?

 

[Nakita Akita]

Maybe it was a 'bum rush' because Maddox wanted to get it over with quickly before he accidentally fell out an airlock?
Everyone likes Data better than Maddox.

 

[Herbert]

2) For twenty years Data has been treated as a sentient being (with all related rights). He had a career. A ranks. He could give commands to subordinates. A evaluation committee (composed by experts, I suppose) decided that he could attend the Star Fleet Academy. He was de facto considered a sentient being (if not de jure). Now someone (who clearly had no experience in the field of Artificial Intelligence or whatever) decided that it was all some kind of joke and Data had no more rights than a lamp (remember, before the hearing the JAG decided that the Maddox's request had merit) opening the way (like Guinan had said) for the creation of a slave race.

I agree. That's the part of the episode that makes me go buh? What did I just see? Doesn't make sense in a supposedly enlightened future.

 

[Kilana2]

I love one of the final scenes when Maddox described Data as remarkable. And I enjoyed Maddox reappearances in the novels..... The Measure of a Man is definitly in my top ten of all Trek episodes......

 

[Mojochi]

I feel Maddox was over eager, and he certainly had doubts I'm sure, but he was ignoring them and was in denial so he could just push through with his work. Don't we all feel that way sometimes?

I'll agree it's a prevalent behavior, but I don't usually indulge in it myself, when it involves dealing with other people, their lives or well being. That's a pretty unhealthy blindness, when you can overlook someone's personal agency in the zeal to see your goal achieved

If you have to force people around you to yield to your control, that's not civil IMHO, & frankly, I'm a little bothered by the thought that someone could be so close to Soong's work, even intending to use the only workable example of it for his benefit, & never see the truth of it. That IMHO means your bias is catastrophic.

Someone with so little respect for the ramifications of what they're doing is destined to stumble. Honestly, that kind of blindness is how hydrogen bombs were made by guys who might never have expected what they were getting themselves into

Everyone focuses on the slavery aspect of Maddox's work, in this episode, but I'm forced to see the other side of it. A guy like Maddox, with no respect for the truth of Soong android sentience, could make a race that literally destroys the federation. Hell, Lore might've done that himself, with just a handful of borg refugees

The hubris of this guy is monumentally dangerous. Fortunately, he comes around at the end

 

[DonIago]

Now, I'll be the first to admit Maddox was incorrect in his assessment and a bit misguided, but...

Given how many people here seem to think Data is sentient but The Doctor is not, but in my experience can't adequately explain why one is and the other is not, I have to ask, if it was The Doctor standing in Data's place, would there still be this degree of vitriol (as I perceive it) directed at Maddox?

If not, then what makes Data different beyond the fact that we, the viewers, knew him from multiple episodes of TNG? Why is Maddox terribly wrong if he wants to find out Data's secrets, but not so terribly wrong if he wants to find out why The Doctor has exceeded his programming?

Perhaps I'm biased because I've read the novels and seen how Maddox evolves, including seeing him fight for B4's rights (hey, is B4 sentient?).

 

[Marynator]

Who says the Doctor isn't sentient? I just don't understand? He seems fully sentient to me?

I feel you are right @Mojochi, especially where people are concerned! I feel Mr Maddox was willing to make himself blind about Mr Data's humanity because if he didn't there's no way he could've gone with his work. He had to make Mr Data into just an object so he could do things to him. Oh people do this all the time to other humans! Like any time a man is using pornography, he has to do this to the women he's using, he needs them to be objects just to serve his pleasure, if he views her as a human how can he use her this way, so selfishly? That's just like an example of how powerful a metaphor these episodes can be, I like to not get too caught up in minutiae or I'll miss something very important?

 

[Kilana2]

Now, I'll be the first to admit Maddox was incorrect in his assessment and a bit misguided, but...

Given how many people here seem to think Data is sentient but The Doctor is not, but in my experience can't adequately explain why one is and the other is not, I have to ask, if it was The Doctor standing in Data's place, would there still be this degree of vitriol (as I perceive it) directed at Maddox?

If not, then what makes Data different beyond the fact that we, the viewers, knew him from multiple episodes of TNG? Why is Maddox terribly wrong if he wants to find out Data's secrets, but not so terribly wrong if he wants to find out why The Doctor has exceeded his programming?

Perhaps I'm biased because I've read the novels and seen how Maddox evolves, including seeing him fight for B4's rights (hey, is B4 sentient?).

You could add Vic Fontaine and maybe Moriarty to the mix. There are still many people who think that the Doctor's many subroutines are unessesary or he should stick to the med business instead of pursuing personal recreational interests - or sex for the matter (Data had experiences and the other EMH aboard Prometheus was downright perplexed and jealous when he met the Doctor). Maddox finally said `he´ when he spoke about Data. Mark I holograms other than the Doctor are obviously still referred to as ìt´.

 

[Mojochi]

Given how many people here seem to think Data is sentient but The Doctor is not, but in my experience can't adequately explain why one is and the other is not, I have to ask, if it was The Doctor standing in Data's place, would there still be this degree of vitriol (as I perceive it) directed at Maddox?

Ultimately, I don't differentiation between types of AI. If they're saying it's a legitimate consciousness on the show, it doesn't matter to me whether it's holographic or robotic by nature. There honestly didn't seem to be any disputing Moriarty's claim of consciousness on TNG, so I have no reason to myself. If we accept that time travel & light speed travel are real on this show, AI sentience in whatever form is just as plausible fiction

 

[Uhura's Song]

This was the first GREAT episode for TNG and remains one of my all-time favorites.

 

[JesterFace]

This was the first GREAT episode for TNG.

Fortunately not the last.

 

[Jonesy]

Commander Riker's forced to compel Data to fight for his life in a courtroom setting (!!!) which tests his friendship with the android and plagues him with feelings of remorse and guilt as he continually raises the stakes in his unenviable task. When it's all over and Data seeks out Riker ... to this day, it still gets me misty. The slavery bit is laid on a bit thick, but that's TV, for you: nothing like beating you over the head with a show's message, lest you forget what it was all about betwixt commercials. And courtroom dramas usually suck arse, but Sir Patrick Stewart's up to the challenge, thank Providence, and keeps things interesting. Captain Phillipa Louvois' hitting on Picard and hitting on him hard is kind of funny and sad, all at once ... she's probably menopausal, when we first meet her. In all, it's just TNG doing what TNG does best: it really satisfies ...

Riker having to prosecute Data is really the "hook" for me when I watch this episode now. Without that, the episode would more or less be your straightfoward episode to save Data, with all of his friends coming in to prove the bad guys wrong. I think Maddux lays his attitude on a bit thick, and I have a few other minor issues with it, but I think it's overall a standout episode of TNG and of Trek. It may really be the first TNG episode that gave the show its own identity.

 

[Stroudarian]

It's a good episode, well played and well written but like many Star Trek episodes it has one infuriating flaw: It doesn't address the elephant in the room. In this case, it's that there's no way of knowing whether Data is sentient or just emulating sentience. That may seem a detail to some but that's the main difference between Pinocchio and a real boy.
There are volumes that have been written on the subject, the first one by René Descartes. You can know about your own sentience but to this day there is no sure-fire way of knowing about the sentience of others than yourself. We infer the sentience of others from the fact that they are very similar to us in nature, for one thing, they are of the same species but there's no way to prove it with absolute certainty. If someone was just an automaton perfectly mimicking the behavior of a human being we wouldn't know about it.

I really enjoy and admire the way that you think.

 

[Roundabout]

I saw this episode last night on H&I. I hadn't seen this episode in a really long time. I have to say it wasn't as good as I remembered it, or expected it to be this time around. Having read the comments in this thread hyped up my expectations for the episode, as I tuned in to watch it last night. The episode was sort of a let down.

Anyway, the JAG lady having a romantic history with Picard was a ripoff of Kirk having had a romantic past with the JAG officer in TOS "Court Martial".

Picard's JAG lady friend was spot on about Picard when she described him as a "pompous ass". I thought Picard acted like an ass through most of the episode, or at least, he acted like he had a chip on his shoulder. Picard definitely held a grudge against the JAG for some past incident, and he kept badgering her about it. Not very gentlemanly-like.

As other posters have mentioned, the whole hearing seemed like a rush job. The JAG was short staffed, so she enlisted Picard and Riker to serve as legal counsel, merely because they were the two most senior officers around, regardless of their lack of competence on legal matters, or conflict of interest in Riker's case. That was ridiculous. But I guess it made good tv sense to have the star Picard to make the argument in defense of Data.

The courtroom drama wasn't as compelling as I remembered or expected, either.

Maybe it was a 'bum rush' because Maddox wanted to get it over with quickly before he accidentally fell out an airlock?
Everyone likes Data better than Maddox.

You're right about that. Who wouldn't like Data better than Maddox. Not only that, but Maddox came across as a bit shady. Maddox's plan on disassembling of Data clearly didn't seem well thought out. From how he described his plan, there seemed to be enormous risks to Data's well being. That alone should have been grounds for objection. He could not guarantee that Data would come out the same after his procedure. Even if he considered Data a machine, the Data machine could have been damaged by his procedure and all would have been lost.

I feel Mr Maddox was willing to make himself blind about Mr Data's humanity because if he didn't there's no way he could've gone with his work. He had to make Mr Data into just an object so he could do things to him. Oh people do this all the time to other humans!

There was that scene where Maddox just barged into Data's quarters, without knocking, ringing or permission, and went through Data's belongings. It was obvious that Maddox had no respect or consideration for Data's humanity (Data's rights, privacy, etc.).

 

[DonIago]

^Well of course Maddox had no respect or consideration for Data; from his perspective Data was a machine without emotion.

I don't ask my toaster for permission before I start digging crumbs out of it.

 

[Marynator]

What if your toaster said "Please, I don't like it when you do that to me"?

 

[Skipper]

What if your toaster said "Please, I don't like it when you do that to me"?

Errr, please continue with your example... it's for a, uhmm, friend....

 

[Ghrakh]

Maddox was right about one thing: "If it were a box on wheels I would not be facing this opposition."

 

[Kor]

And ironically, in the very next episode they encounter an organic species with box-shaped bodies and wheel-like appendages instead of arms and legs.

Kor