The MCU's Bruce Banner: where does he go from here?

[Trekker4747]

No, Cap was a bit ticked that they were developing weapons as well.

 

[Christopher]

What set them off, what made them all so upset, was Tony's discovery that SHIELD was developing tesseract-based weapons.

We're good and off-topic here, but while we're at it, did anyone else find this beat kind of ridiculous? Given what little Stark knows of potential alien threats, his blithely comparing SHIELD's weapons research to the Cold War human vs. human nukes buildup (on which point he was quite correct)struck me as more than a bit absurd.

I don't think it's absurd at all. Just because the intent is to develop a weapon for defense, that doesn't mean it won't be abused. After all, Tony intended his weapons for defense, and he saw firsthand how they ended up being abused and corrupted. If anything, it would've been absurd for him not to be aware of that danger, given his established history. Not to mention how angry he was at Fury for lying to him about it, getting him to cooperate under false pretenses. That's not the sort of thing that would make him inclined to trust SHIELD's intentions for these weapons.

Wasn't Cap just as indignant as Stark, seeing the weapons development as continuing Hydra's legacy? Or am I misremembering the scene?

You're probably right. As I said, I've only seen the film once to date. I keep meaning to rectify that and go again, but the timing hasn't been right.

 

[theenglish]

Yes, I'll grant that the spear was amplifying the emotions that came within them. But it is a complete misunderstanding of the film to say that it created the tensions or that those tensions were "out of character" for them. At most, it was like the spear was getting them drunk -- relaxing their inhibitions and heightening their aggression.

Then we are in agreement. By "out of character", I was referring to how they were behaving not what their individual opinions are. The drunk analogy is a good one--with respect to Banner it allows the Hulk to run rampant, out of control, unlike later in the film.

 

[Christopher]

I've just seen the movie again, and I'm still not convinced that the sceptre was having any amplifying effect on the characters' emotions. The editing and cinematography did give that impression, but I think it was ambiguous, and I can't point to any specific thing that any of the characters said or did that couldn't be explained as a result of their natural emotional response to the situation. My impression was that the sceptre was simply monitoring them rather than affecting them; we saw that the plane Hawkeye and his troops were aboard had a console readout showing the sceptre, and it seemed to me that they were using it to spy on the situation aboard the Helicarrier so they'd know when Banner was agitated enough that they could push him over the edge by attacking.

Yes, you could interpret Banner grabbing the sceptre as evidence that it had some kind of influence over him; but you could also interpret it as evidence that his control simply wasn't as good as he wanted it to be, and as foreshadowing of his line "I'm always angry." Whedon and Ruffalo's approach to the character in this film is as a man who's always riding on the edge of fury, seemingly calm on the surface but seething with rage underneath. I don't think a man like that needed magical mind manipulation to come close to losing it in that situation.

So if you want to believe the sceptre was loosening their inhibitions, I certainly agree it's possible and there's nothing that contradicts that interpretation. But I don't think there's anything that requires it either.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think the scepter was just amplifying their natural emotions and actions, lowering the inhibitions. Not putting thoughts and ideas in their head so much as letting those come out. There's also a good indication that "something isn't right" when there's a break in the argument between Cap and Tony when Tony does that thing where you pinch the bridge of your nose and shake your head. This is an indication, to me, he was "feeling off." (Banner does the same thing when Loki does the perp walk and gets his hooks into him.)

The opposing personalities and egos were always there the scepter was just making them stand out more. Tony's an egomaniac, sure, but he's not that much of an ass unless he's trying to put on a show. Thor may be a god and over everyone but not enough so to smirk a "Puny mortals." Banner may always be on the verge of breaking lose but he's obviously got a good handle on it. Captain America is supposed to be virtuous and awesome not a drill sergeant captain trying to lure his underlings into a fight.

The scepter was clearly doing something to them. That fight wasn't a "natural" one at all. It was boiling under the surface, yeah, but the scepter helped it go from a simmer to rolling boil.

 

[Christopher]

There's also a good indication that "something is right" when there's a break in the argument between Cap and Tony when tony does that thing where you pinch the bridge of your nose a shake your head. This is an indication, to me, he was "feeling off." (Banner does the same thing when Loki does the perp walk and gets his hooks into him.)

That's one possible interpretation, yes. I also noticed some camera angles that seemed to convey an impression of unease and strangeness, like a Dutch tilt on Thor's "petty and tiny" line. I've conceded that there are things that suggest that interpretation. I'm just saying that it's not conclusive and another interpretation is possible. There doesn't have to be an absolute right or wrong answer; lots of works of fiction are intentionally ambiguous and amenable to multiple readings.

The opposing personalities and egos were always there the scepter was just making them stand out more. Tony's an egomaniac, sure, but he's not that much of an ass unless he's trying to put on a show.

Or unless he's provoked. He'd just found out that Fury had been lying to him and using the Tesseract to develop weapons. And Fury had found out that Stark was spying on SHIELD systems, a serious breach of security and possibly of federal law. There was more than enough reason for everyone to be angry without any magical intervention at all. So it seems to me that having the sceptre influence them would've been redundant.

Thor may be a god and over everyone but not enough so to smirk a "Puny mortals."

As we saw in Thor, he absolutely was that arrogant for most of his life -- which for all we know could've been centuries. He only learned humility a year ago. Even a reformed person can occasionally lapse into old patterns, especially when the reform is so recent. And especially in the middle of a heated argument.

Banner may always be on the verge of breaking lose but he's obviously got a good handle on it.

But what does that mean? Banner here was someone whose control was like a surfer's control on a board -- not holding things stable, but keeping an unstable system in a delicate balance, managing to stay upright and on top of the wave that's constantly surging beneath him. But the wave is always there just underneath. Even an expert surfer can lose balance and fall, especially if external circumstances throw off that balance.

Captain America is supposed to be virtuous and awesome not a drill sergeant captain trying to lure his underlings into a fight.

Being virtuous doesn't mean being one-dimensional or emotionless. Remember, this is a man who woke up and found that everything he knew and loved was gone, a man who feels lost and alone in the world. As we saw in his first scene in this film, he's so full of rage toward his situation that he goes through multiple punching bags in a single session. Unfortunately most of the material about Steve's difficulty adjusting to today's world was cut from the film for pacing, but you could see glimpses of his frustration -- talking to Fury about how so much had been lost since his day, asking Coulson if the Stars and Stripes weren't too old-fashioned in this day and age. This is a man who's feeling displaced, alone, and bitter, frustrated by our modern, frivolous, cynical, tech-obsessed world. And Tony Stark embodies all of those qualities, so it's natural that he'd become a focus for Steve's frustration.

And Tony is certainly not Steve's "underling," and Steve wouldn't see him that way. He's a civilian consultant, a captain of industry, much as his father Howard was in Steve's day. Not to mention that Tony was provoking Steve at least as much as the reverse. So Steve wasn't being a bullying drill sergeant; it was a more equal confrontation than that.

The scepter was clearly doing something to them. That fight wasn't a "natural" one at all. It was boiling under the surface, yeah, but the scepter helped it go from a simmer to rolling boil.

You can read it that way, yes, but that's not the only way to read it. I think everything that happened can be explained purely in terms of the situation and the characters, if you recognize that the characters are full-fledged, fallible human beings. And I think that's the more interesting interpretation.

 

[Trekker4747]

As we saw in Thor, he absolutely was that arrogant for most of his life -- which for all we know could've been centuries. He only learned humility a year ago. Even a reformed person can occasionally lapse into old patterns, especially when the reform is so recent. And especially in the middle of a heated argument.

I could argue that the whole point of Thor changing his personality in his own movie was to teach him an ounce or two of humility and that's the only reason why he got the power to wield Mjolnir again. If he still had that head-strongness and self-centeredness in him he would likely lose that power. Infact we even seen in his initial encounter with Loki how much he had grown as a person (god?) as an extension of the sacrifice he made at the end of his own movie when he destroyed the Bifrost (his only connection back to Jane.)

I agree that the scene can probably be read multiple ways depending on one's point of view, but I don't think that saying that the scepter was influencing things doesn't make these people any less of full-fledged characters.

We all have these boiling, raging, emotions inside of us like Banner does and we all have our ways of keeping ourselves in check with the social norms but we're all susceptible to things that break down these filters and barriers. For us normal mortals this usually substances like alcohol and other drugs. Take some and you don't become a different person you guard is down, the filter off, and the "real you" comes out, or at least what's boiling under you.

That's what I think was likely going on here, Captain likely was upset with what he was seeing with this time, with the hero-ness Tony swaggered around with but he's human and respectable enough to keep those thoughts to himself. The scepter broke his guard and the "real him" flooded out.

Tony is obviously an ego-maniac and probably has a lot of right to be but the situation with SHIELD and everything else was getting to him. Now he's not one to mince his words so the scepter may not have been impacting him as much but I think it still was to some level. He was probably a little less guarded than he normally would be.

Thor, same thing. In his mind he knows humans or lesser than him and petty, but he's a god who is supposed to better than them and certainly can't let them know that.

And Banner, well, the scepter proved stronger than him as it finally broke Banner's defenses and let the Hulk out.

As you noted there were even clues in cinematography (the odd angles) which suggests a "something is off."

I think it's possible for both things to be happening without it damaging any arcs or complexity in the characters. At most it let us "get in the characters minds" more than we would watching their guarded personalities they put out there for everyone else.

I, for one, also cannot wait to see the stuff about Cap. they left on the cutting room floor as, yeah, I heard there was a lot of good stuff with him.

Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine no one's is any more right or wrong than the other's as the beauty of art -and probably Whedon's writing in general- is that it's open to interpretation and thus discussion of differing opinions.

 

[Gaith]

Going back on-topic a bit, I find myself wishing there'd been a General Ross mention. Could have been done in as little as four seconds:

Agent Hill: "Sir, General Ross is on the line, asking for y-"
Fury: "Not now."

[continue as before]

 

[Turtletrekker]

^ There was a scene similar to that in "Fury's Big WeeK".

SHIELD agent: "Sir-- General Ross is requesting--"
Fury: "Tell him 'no'".

 

[Mr Light]

They indirectly mentioned General Ross. Black Widow told Banner in his first scene that SHIELD was keeping other people away from him.