The Maquis or the Federation?

[neozeks]

The problem isn't that the Feds couldn't roll over the Cardies, it's that they wouldn't roll over the Cardies. They seem to fight only defensive wars, and they have this crazy thing about not conquering people.

I don't think it was really a matter of not conquering anyone. They could have just destroyed the Cardassian military without out-right conquering Cardassia - and since I assume the Cardies attacked first destroying their military power so as to prevent further attacks would have been still a defensive act. It was more that the Federation decided that that result wouldn't have been worth the increased casualties and destruction caused by an all-out war. I have a feeling the Cardassian War was already a rather unpopular war in the Federation (something like Vietnam for Americans). And in the latter stages of the war the Feds had a lot more to worry about on their other borders, what with the Borg, the Romulans coming out of their isolation, the Klingons in turmoil, etc.

 

[JRoss]

The problem isn't that the Feds couldn't roll over the Cardies, it's that they wouldn't roll over the Cardies. They seem to fight only defensive wars, and they have this crazy thing about not conquering people.

I don't think it was really a matter of not conquering anyone. They could have just destroyed the Cardassian military without out-right conquering Cardassia - and since I assume the Cardies attacked first destroying their military power so as to prevent further attacks would have been still a defensive act. It was more that the Federation decided that that result wouldn't have been worth the increased casualties and destruction caused by an all-out war. I have a feeling the Cardassian War was already a rather unpopular war in the Federation (something like Vietnam for Americans). And in the latter stages of the war the Feds had a lot more to worry about on their other borders, what with the Borg, the Romulans coming out of their isolation, the Klingons in turmoil, etc.

Your thoughts work for me, too. There was just never enough evidence provided to show that Cardassia was an equal to the Fed. Although, one thing that I can think of is that Starfleet would not likely completely demilitarize a nation just to defend itself, as they'd probably then be expected to defend that nation in perpetuity.

 

[commanderkai]

If anything, evidence suggests otherwise, as Nechayev mentions at least a limited degree of inclusion in "Journey's End".

The same episode where they were about to remove a colony by force? Yeah...I'm not sure how believable that is, unless "limited degree of inclusion" means bringing everyone there to break the news. I'd consider the improper handling of these colonies as the Federation as evidence that said colonies were improperly handled in the treaty process.

Sadly, there's no real canon evidence one way or another, apart from interpretation of what has been shown on the show.

 

[DonIago]

The fact that the treaty didn't go the way some parties may have wanted doesn't preclude their having had a role in the discussions regarding said treaty. "You can't always get what you want," and all.

 

[commanderkai]

The fact that the treaty didn't go the way some parties may have wanted doesn't preclude their having had a role in the discussions regarding said treaty. "You can't always get what you want," and all.

True enough, but in my interpretation, all of the episodes relating to the treaty and the Maquis show how the issue was poorly handled by the Federation/Starfleet. Sadly, the information is lacking...which is a bit disappointing since this could have been rather interesting to view on screen.

 

[los2188]

So would the Maquis be better off if they would have just relented and go with the flow so to speak? Is hanging on to a piece of land, knowing you'll have another piece of land elsewhere, worth fighting to the death?? I still don't have an opinion as of yet as to whether I would side with the Federation or Maquis. One other thing that I've always wondered about....what did Eddington have to gain by siding with the Maquis? Or was it just on principles of right vs wrong?

 

[R. Star]

So would the Maquis be better off if they would have just relented and go with the flow so to speak? Is hanging on to a piece of land, knowing you'll have another piece of land elsewhere, worth fighting to the death?? I still don't have an opinion as of yet as to whether I would side with the Federation or Maquis. One other thing that I've always wondered about....what did Eddington have to gain by siding with the Maquis? Or was it just on principles of right vs wrong?

When DS9 first aired, the Eddington character was suspicious early on when he was still on DS9. I had thought he was a changeling actually just from his odd behavior. Certainly him randomly joining the Maquis one episode surprised the heck out of me, which kind of was what they were going for. To put a face we've seen awhile and that is familiar on the Maquis.

As for Eddington's personal motivations, in The Adversary, Eddington had mentioned that he wanted to be the captain, as that's what everyone dreams of when they join Starfleet but he had pretty much capped out as a Lieutenant Commander as head of security. In For the Uniform and Blaze of Glory, his mindset it more rationalize that he wanted to be the hero of his own story, and saw the Maquis cause as a sympathetic route for glory that he'd never obtain in Starfleet.

Egotistic? Sure, but he was hardly the first Starfleet officer to join the Maquis. Cal Hudson, Ro Laren, Tom Riker, Chakotay, Tom Paris all also joined the Maquis, each of them having their own varied reasons. Hudson was the voice of the colonists and saw those people suffering. Ro Laren wanted a place where she could truly belong. Riker just wanted so badly to differentiate himself from his clone. Chakotay joined because he was opposed to the treaty. Paris was booted out of Starfleet and just wanted to fly again and "get his bar bill paid."

Every character mentioned wasn't an evil person, and found in the Maquis a cause they could personally embrace for their own reasons. A group of terrorized colonists, abandoned by their own government, fighting the Cardassians for their homes and freedom does strike a certain romantic chord. Eddington blatantly started comparing himself to heroes in stories and Sisko to a villain, not just a villain but one who only went after the hero because he didn't know better.

So Eddington wasn't the captain, but he was the main character in his own story. It turned out to be a tragedy.

 

[los2188]

So in the case of the Federation vs. the Maquis... do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Of course the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The redrawn lines of Federation and Cardassian space came as a measure to the conclusion to a war the Federation had just concluded with the Cardassian Union. The Maqui were given the option of relocating to Fed. space or living in the dmz under Cardassian rule.

Since Cardassians have no love for humans they attacked them and screwed with their settlements and such. The Maqui, those Federation citizens chose to live in their situation. Attacking Cardassia put the whole Federation at risk. because the Fed and Cardassia had recently come to peace terms. The Maqui expected the Fed to go back to war with Cardassia on their behalf. Cardassia held the Fed accountable for the actions of the Maqui, even though nothing they did was sanctioned or condoned by the Fed. Ignore the Kira Nerys of the galaxy and her preachiness about how the Maqui had the right to defend themselves. Fact is the Maqui should have relocated to Fed. space or tolerate Caradassian torment. The Jem Ha'Dar and the Dominion paid the Maqui back in kind on behalf of their Cardassian allies. The Maqui were the biggest losers of the Dominion conflict.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What I want to know about Eddington is this:

In that episode where some of the crew are trapped in the holodeck (their minds are in the computer and their bodies are used in the program), Eddington was one of the crew who worked hard to save them. But since he was Maquis, why would he care? Wouldn't he consider the rest of them to be his enemies, and thus try to let them die?

 

[Pavonis]

He probably wasn't Maquis yet. Besides, the Maquis aren't evil or sadistic.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Eddington definitely had a mean streak about him. He was just an insufferable jackass who was in it for his own ego. He had such a Jean Valjean complex about him that it colored his whole judgment.

The only explanation I can think of is that he HAD to appear to work to save the crew, otherwise he would have been exposed.

As for "the Maquis aren't evil": Ask the crew of the Malinche. Or, better yet: Ask the next-of-kin of the crew of the Bok'Nor...

 

[R. Star]

The Malinche was a legitimate target, who by the way was on mission to go after the Maquis. Of course it's going to be attacked.

The Bok'Nor -was- smuggling weapons too. Dukat admitted he was wrong about it at the end of part 2.

 

[Pavonis]

Well, the Bok'Nor was shipping weapons.

But, back to Eddington. Are you sure he was Maquis when he helped rescue Sisko et al from their holosuite predicament?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Pardon my French, but I really don't fucking CARE what the crew of the Bok'Nor were smuggling. They did not deserve to die.

Although in the Maquis' eyes, the fact that it was a Cardassian crew probably made all the difference...

As for Eddington: Why should we not assume that he was Maquis from the get-go? He certainly acted like it.

 

[R. Star]

Pardon my French, but I really don't fucking CARE what the crew of the Bok'Nor were smuggling. They did not deserve to die.

Although in the Maquis' eyes, the fact that it was a Cardassian crew probably made all the difference...

As for Eddington: Why should we not assume that he was Maquis from the get-go? He certainly acted like it.

So it's alright to give weapons to others who are blatantly attacking and killing those Federation civillians, but the moment they move to stop it, they're in the wrong? That's a hell of a moral distinction and one that's very wanting.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the Maquis could attack and disable the Malinche without murdering its crew, then they could have done the same to the Bok'Nor. But then, they wouldn't get to kill Cardassians, would they?

And let's not forget that it was Eddington who came up with the plan to use biological weapons AGAINST CARDASSIA ITSELF. Of course, the plan was a ruse, but the fact that Eddington came up with it at all was rather telling. If he could have actually managed to get it to work, I'm sure he would have. Perhaps not all Maquis commanders would have done it (Chakotay, for example), but Eddington definitely would have.

Part of the problem, then, is that the very nature of the Maquis as a radical revolutionary movement - with no central authority or leader - means that the possibility of some random psycho coming up and committing crimes in the Maquis name becomes more of a risk. For every 'noble' Maquis like Chakotay, Cal Hudson, or even Ro Laren, there's people like Eddington, Lon Suder, etc.

 

[Pavonis]

Pardon my French, but I really don't fucking CARE what the crew of the Bok'Nor were smuggling. They did not deserve to die.

Although in the Maquis' eyes, the fact that it was a Cardassian crew probably made all the difference...

As for Eddington: Why should we not assume that he was Maquis from the get-go? He certainly acted like it.

You assume that Eddington was Maquis before he stole the industrial replicators, but we don't know that he was. Just because he was unlikeable doesn't mean he was Maquis.

 

[R. Star]

If the Maquis could attack and disable the Malinche without murdering its crew, then they could have done the same to the Bok'Nor. But then, they wouldn't get to kill Cardassians, would they?

And let's not forget that it was Eddington who came up with the plan to use biological weapons AGAINST CARDASSIA ITSELF. Of course, the plan was a ruse, but the fact that Eddington came up with it at all was rather telling. If he could have actually managed to get it to work, I'm sure he would have. Perhaps not all Maquis commanders would have done it (Chakotay, for example), but Eddington definitely would have.

You're playing the race card here? Wow... you're seeing things that aren't there. The only evidence of -any- racism was Eddington's comment "they're just Cardassians" and being he was trying to goad Sisko's conscience into turning around and not kill him, so you have to take that with a grain of salt. So yeah... not proven column.

Same with the attack in Blaze of Glory. It was a ruse to tempt Sisko. Eddington -did- know how to manipulate the man.

Though on the subject of biological weapons, sure Eddington used them and deserved to be locked away for that. So did Sisko for using that trilithium resin, which was the same freaking thing. They really should have been sharing a jail cell, but Sisko didn't get punished.

Yes, they were a small splinter group who was outnumbered and out equipped by the Cardassians. Did you really expect them to send what few ships they had in a head on attack? That would just be stupid of them. So yes, they did resort to hit and run, terrorist style attacks. I suppose you think the Bajorians were wrong to fight the Cardassian occupation too instead of just leaving Bajor like say... Ro Laren?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ At least the Bajoran resistance tried as best they could to confine their attacks to members of the Cardassian military.

And as I said, the Maquis surely could have disabled the Bok'Nor without destroying it.

On the subject of Sisko, though: He did not commit any crimes. Eddington started those attacks with the express intention of wiping out Cardassian colonies. Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field, by forcing the Maquis and Cardassians to exchange colony sites. No one died as a result of Sisko's actions, but if Eddington had gone unchecked, there would have been casualties... remember, Sisko gave ample warning for the Maquis to evacuate.