The Maquis or the Federation?

[DonIago]

For that matter, ultimately what the Maquis did played right into the Dominion's hands.

Makes you wonder whether the Maquis may have been infiltrated by Changelings, actually.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But would you want to give up your home, I mean some of us might be willing to even if begrudgingly, but some who have spent years building a life on those colonies would be far less likely to want to up sticks and move (and going back to my analogy they had every reason to, the Cardassians are hardly Canadian or Mexican!)

I do love my home, but if I was presented with a good enough reason for moving, I'd take it. I certainly wouldn't become a terrorist against the government. In the end, a home is four walls and a ceiling surrounding all your stuff. Certainly not worth armed rebellion.

IRL, if the government takes my home via eminent domain, they must compensate me by paying me the fair market value of my home (I *think* they have to help me find a new home as well, though I'm not sure about that). I'd consider that a fair trade.

And I'd just like to repeat that it was the colonists' IDEA to live under Cardassian rule in the first place (true, "Journey's End" did not specifically mention the Maquis, but it's obvious they were leading up to that). That doesn't justify what the Cardassian colonists later did, but it does put paid to the notion that the Federation handed the colonists over to the Cardies against their will.

When this arrangement was initially worked out, Picard was faced with a Cardassian crew (led by Gul Evek) who appeared to be quite reasonable. Picard, and by extension the Federation as a whole, had little reason to imagine what was about to happen. Who knows, Evek himself may have been horrified by those subsequent developments (Evek seemed like a fairly decent sort).

 

[Use of Time]

I hated the fact that the Maquis apparently had children they forced to remain behind on principle. Try this analogy. I purchase a home in a decent neighborhood and begin raising my family. Let's say I've been there five years. Say that the neighborhood starts showing signs of decline and drugs/crime start to insert themselves into the area. The police are doing what they can but it's like fighting the ocean. I would feel that I have a responsibility to my children and wife to remove them from that situation. My house would be on the market in no time, principles be damned.

 

[JediKnightButler]

You know, I never quite got the Maquis. They were pissed off (with justification) about the Federation/Cardassian treaty that forcibly relocated them from their colonies in the DMZ but it was never quite clear what their endgame was or how they hoped to achieve it. It seemed like they were very "romantic" about their cause like Eddington but after all being said and done, what did they ultimately hope to achieve through their tactics? I've always kind of wondered too what happened to the surviving Maquis after Cardassia allied with the Dominion and wiped most of them out? Whatever "goals" they had hoped to achieve clearly went up in smoke at that point. And can any of them honestly say it was worth it?

 

[Use of Time]

You know, I never quite got the Maquis. They were pissed off (with justification) about the Federation/Cardassian treaty that forcibly relocated them from their colonies in the DMZ but it was never quite clear what their endgame was or how they hoped to achieve it. It seemed like they were very "romantic" about their cause like Eddington but after all being said and done, what did they ultimately hope to achieve through their tactics? I've always kind of wondered too what happened to the surviving Maquis after Cardassia allied with the Dominion and wiped most of them out? Whatever "goals" they had hoped to achieve clearly went up in smoke at that point. And can any of them honestly say it was worth it?

Well we see Maquis ships joining the Federation in several battles with the Dominion, I would assume that the Maquis were all but forgiven at that point and the Federation couldn't really be choosy about the help they received.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

They're a democracy whose legitimately elected leaders made a legal treaty with another government, and I assume the treaty had broad support outside of that small minority of colonists.

So because they were elected and created the treaty through legal channels, it must have been the right thing to do. Of course. There were lots of people who thought it was a good idea, so that makes it all okay.

[/sarcasm]

The Federation should not have given those planets up to the Cardassians. The Feds knew full well that the Cardassians had a brutal history of oppression, slavery, and atrocity. They weren't right to give those planets up.

At the same time, it would have been far more rational and intelligent for the Maquis to leave. Absolutely. And of course, humans only ever make rational, intelligent decisions, right?

So while the Federation may not have had the right to surrender those planets to the Cardassians, it's important to remember that it was the Cardassians, not the Feds, who brutalized the colonists. Did the colonists have a legitimate grievance with the Federation? Perhaps, but that doesn't really justify their actions. As JediKnightButler said...wait, JediKnightButler? What kind of a name is that? :P I like it. So, as JediKnightButler said, what was their endgame? What did they hope to accomplish by attacking the Federation?.

But did they have a legitimate grievance with the brutal Cardassians? Absolutely.

Leaving would have been the right thing to do. But after they decided not to leave, fighting back against the Cardassians was also the right thing to do. It's not a perfectly clear situation, and no one group was completely in the right. Personally, I would have gotten the frell out of there before the Cardassians showed up. There's no shame in running. Not when you're running from a brutal military regime that wants to crush and enslave you and has the power to do so.

 

[JediKnightButler]

You know, I never quite got the Maquis. They were pissed off (with justification) about the Federation/Cardassian treaty that forcibly relocated them from their colonies in the DMZ but it was never quite clear what their endgame was or how they hoped to achieve it. It seemed like they were very "romantic" about their cause like Eddington but after all being said and done, what did they ultimately hope to achieve through their tactics? I've always kind of wondered too what happened to the surviving Maquis after Cardassia allied with the Dominion and wiped most of them out? Whatever "goals" they had hoped to achieve clearly went up in smoke at that point. And can any of them honestly say it was worth it?

Well we see Maquis ships joining the Federation in several battles with the Dominion, I would assume that the Maquis were all but forgiven at that point and the Federation couldn't really be choosy about the help they received.

When was this? I do have to admit that I saw almost no episodes between the "Occupation Arc" in S6 and "Final Chapter in S7, so it's entirely possible I missed this but I didn't know this before.

 

[DonIago]

I saw the class of ship that the Maquis were frequently shown to be using used during the DW episodes, but saying that they were crewed by Maquis would be overreaching.

 

[Use of Time]

I saw the class of ship that the Maquis were frequently shown to be using used during the DW episodes, but saying that they were crewed by Maquis would be overreaching.

I don't know that it would be overreaching. It was pretty much all hands on deck in the Alpha Quadrant to keep the Dominion and Cardassians from taking control. All of the border issues and tap dancing to prevent a war by the Federation would all be pretty much moot seeing as how the Federation was openly at war with Cardassians at that point.

 

[DonIago]

My point is that as the Maquis were using Federation property to begin with, it's at least as likely that the "Maquis" ships seen later were piloted by Starfleet crews.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Exactly. I had thought it was common knowledge that any ships that the Maquis had were actually stolen from Starfleet. It's not like they could have had much of a shipbuilding capability inside the DMZ anyway.

 

[R. Star]

Well the Maquis ships were stated to be "modified old support couriers" I'd find it more likely the Federation saw how effective they were as fighter craft and began to mass produce them with the Dominion war clouds on the horizon.

But as for the Maquis against the Federation? They started out attacking only Cardassian targets. The Federation just repeatedly interfered, attacked them at every oppurtunity, and the such. You do get the impression they weren't actively targetting the Federation until Eddington took over though, which did up the ante to say the least, but can't be surprising in hindsight.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Eddington? Pfft. He was an egotistical jackass, nothing more. He was in it for his own ego. He wasn't anywhere near as principled as, for example, Chakotay.

And the only reason the Federation 'interfered' was because the actions of the Maquis were risking war with Cardassia.

 

[R. Star]

Eddington? Pfft. He was an egotistical jackass, nothing more. He was in it for his own ego. He wasn't anywhere near as principled as, for example, Chakotay.

And the only reason the Federation 'interfered' was because the actions of the Maquis were risking war with Cardassia.

If Chakotay had principles he hid them well, with his one line an episode.

Really Sisko and Eddington are two sides of the same coin. Both of them do have huge egos. Eddington wants to go play romantic hero, Sisko takes Eddington's betrayal personally and wants revenge. The grudge match between the two is pretty much a personal vendetta more than Federation vs Maquis.

Eddington raises the stakes by using biogenic weapons against the Cardassian planets in the DMZ, Sisko responds in turn against the Maquis colonies(which is really a WTF moment when Worf, the most trigger happy guy in Trek, questions an order to fire). Eddington definitely was a war criminal by using said biogenic weapons, but Sisko was just as guilty. Sisko using that trilithium resin is the equivilent of a US sub captain firing a tactical nuke at an Arabian village he suspects of holding an Al Qaida cell without bothering to check with his chain of command.

Eddington was dead on about "And you're betraying [your uniform]! The said part is you don't even realize it!" They really should have been sharing a cell.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko's actions weren't on the same level as Eddington's.

Eddington, by the very action of initiating the use of bioweapons, demonstrated his belief in his own ego (and possibly the genocide of the Cardassian race). Eddington would have been quite happy to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ, whether or not they were involved in any actions against the Maquis colonies.

Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field. By deploying the same weapons against the Maquis, Sisko merely ensured that the two sides - Cardassian and Maquis - would have to exchange colony sites. Nothing more than that. By his own actions Sisko stopped any further genocide, by ensuring that the Maquis would have to give up no more, and no less, than what the Cardassians would have suffered at Eddington's hand.

Side note: If Eddington had lived to see what happened to Cardassia itself at the end of the Dominion War, I wonder what he'd think. He'd probably be laughing his ass off.

Oh well...whether it be a personal comparison (Sisko vs. Eddington), or Federation vs. Maquis, the basic theme is the same. Order (Federation) vs. Chaos (Maquis). The same process repeats on multiple levels.

 

[R. Star]

Sisko's actions weren't on the same level as Eddington's.

Eddington, by the very action of initiating the use of bioweapons, demonstrated his belief in his own ego (and possibly the genocide of the Cardassian race). Eddington would have been quite happy to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ, whether or not they were involved in any actions against the Maquis colonies.

Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field. By deploying the same weapons against the Maquis, Sisko merely ensured that the two sides - Cardassian and Maquis - would have to exchange colony sites. Nothing more than that. By his own actions Sisko stopped any further genocide, by ensuring that the Maquis would have to give up no more, and no less, than what the Cardassians would have suffered at Eddington's hand.

Side note: If Eddington had lived to see what happened to Cardassia itself at the end of the Dominion War, I wonder what he'd think. He'd probably be laughing his ass off.

Oh well...whether it be a personal comparison (Sisko vs. Eddington), or Federation vs. Maquis, the basic theme is the same. Order (Federation) vs. Chaos (Maquis). The same process repeats on multiple levels.

Well you should be all for the Dominion if you think "order" is the only justifiable force in the world. I mean they slaughtered those 800 million Cardassians in the name of order after all. The Cardassians would have said they subjugated Bajor and screwed around with those Maquis worlds in the name of order after all.

Really though, both Sisko and Eddington have a lot of blood on their hands. Unless you really think that on planets with thousands, if not millions of people, everyone has a spaceship they can hop onto with a few minutes notice even assuming you can get in touch with everyone. That's cheap saying Eddington's a villain for doing it but when Sisko does it, it's just "evening the playing field." The method of poisoning entire planets should be morally condemnable no matter the reasons.

As for his reaction to the Cardassian masscre? That's hard. I don't think he'd be laughing his ass off, he was an antagonist sure, but he was no Gul Dukat or any other traditional Trek Villain. Assuming he surived in a Federation prison(or who knows, they might have given back his commision with all the manpower shortages during the war), in my opinion, he'd be spiteful at first, even calling it poetic justice(just like Martok) until the enormity of the statistic set in for him.

 

[DonIago]

The Cardassian massacre had nothing to do with order and everything to do with revenge and arguably the female shapeshifter going batshit crazy.

As we have no idea how many Maquis were on the planet Sisko torpedoed, nor how much access they had to ships (given they were refugees by this point, it's quite possible they were ready to make a speedy exit if necessary) I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume there were any casualties. I can see Starfleet overlooking the situation much more readily if no death ensued, and it's obvious that Sisko didn't take any serious heat for his actions.

 

[R. Star]

The Cardassian massacre had nothing to do with order and everything to do with revenge and arguably the female shapeshifter going batshit crazy.

As we have no idea how many Maquis were on the planet Sisko torpedoed, nor how much access they had to ships (given they were refugees by this point, it's quite possible they were ready to make a speedy exit if necessary) I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume there were any casualties. I can see Starfleet overlooking the situation much more readily if no death ensued, and it's obvious that Sisko didn't take any serious heat for his actions.

I get the inner need to vindicate the main protagonist, but do you really think a group of refugees is going to have a ship for every person just sitting around?

 

[Ian Keldon]

the Federation.


Peace trumps some random pieces of land.

Spend your life tying to build a legacy for yourself and your family and see how YOU react when someone who has no right to do so gives away YOUR land.

And in the 24th century, where your "home" is just doesn't really matter. The UFP is a utopia where all your basic needs are provided for and you can work as whatever you want.

Only on the core worlds, as Sisko once noted.

"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"

And as Eddington noted:

"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their "rightful place" on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

or as Goshaven noted in "Ensigns of Command"

Gosheven, Data, and Ard'rian are standing near the pool of water. Gosheven cups some water in a hand. GOSHEVEN See that? Do you have any idea what it is? What it means? DATA It is water, a substance composed of two atoms of hydrogen -- GOSHEVEN It's not water. It's blood and sweat -- the result of a hundred and forty years of combined effort. (ALTERNATE: ninety years) This isn't a town. (MORE) STAR TREK: "Ensigns of Command" REV. 7/24/89 - ACT TWO 23. 22 CONTINUED: GOSHEVEN (Cont'd) It's a monument to every man, woman, and child who has lived and died on Tau Cygna Five. ARD'RIAN Gosheven, you're talking nonsense. GOSHEVEN Am I? My grandfather's buried on that mountain. (points to the distant line of hills) He died in a rock slide surveying the route for this aqueduct. This colony exists because of his sacrifice, and the sacrifices of thousands of others. No, we're not leaving. DATA The Sheliak will not accept humans on their planet. And they will not hesitate to use force to remove you. GOSHEVEN (calmly) And we will not hesitate to fight back. DATA You cannot win. GOSHEVEN You just don't understand, do you? We will not be bullied off our land... not by you, and not by the Sheliak.

It's not like now where relocation might mean having to find a new job, a new house, etc.

In the colonies, that is exactly what it means.

The Maquis "cause" was just silly.

Only if you buy into the nonsense "perfect universe" preached by the Church of St Roddenberry.

The Federation of Kirk's day wouldn't leave the Maquis hanging out to dry. It says something terrible about the 24th century Federation that it would.

 

[Romulus Prime]

the Federation.


Peace trumps some random pieces of land.

Sooo if the Government came in and said your home was to be purchased by them and demolished due to "Imminent Domain," that would be OK, right?

...in the 24th century, where your "home" is just doesn't really matter. The UFP is a utopia where all your basic needs are provided for and you can work as whatever you want.

Those planets were their homes. It obviously DID matter. And no, the Federation isn't a utopia. There are pockets of corruption within both the Fed and Starfleet, and it's been demonstrated time and again. This situation isn't too different - Fed makes a deal with a KNOWN oppressive and hostile force, and basically turns a blind eye to any Federation citizens who's homes happen to fall on the Cardi side of the new boarders. So it's a "utopia" as long as you do what the nanny state tells you to do, otherwise you're bent over by Cardassians when your home happens to end up in their territory when boarder lines are redrawn.

Where's the morality in that?

It's not like now where relocation might mean having to find a new job, a new house, etc.


The Maquis "cause" was just silly.

It IS the same due to principal, but that's not even the point. The Fed basically told those people "hey, all of you over there! You're gonna either have to move or fall under Cardassian rule." What the Fed actually was saying was "Hey all of you over there! We f***ed you over, and if you stay where you live, your new group of governors will f*** you over and over and over. Too bad - we need to maintain our (pretend) utopia at the cost of YOUR asses."

Again the morality of those actions are where, exactly? How is it right and fair?