The liking of the Villian or evil empire.. and what that means.

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by valkyrie013, Oct 2, 2019.

?

Is having villain memorabilia a bad thing?

  1. Yes there may be somthing wrong here.

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  2. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%
  3. Of course not, there just things

    5 vote(s)
    35.7%
  4. If they go overboard, then maybe

    7 vote(s)
    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Captain Captain

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    Was on another website, and had a post about something that I think would make a good topic here..

    So, this guy was saying that building plastic model airplanes ( was a plastic model site) that depict an evil organization, ( Example was, Bf-109's from WW2 Nazi Germany, but also Nazi tanks, etc.) that the builder was a "Closeted Sympathizer" that they agree with or, like what said evil empire did.
    An example of this was, some modelers just build 1 thing.. over and over.. Example was some guy that built 30 Me-262's, all the different variations, and he displays them. He said, this shows sympathy for the nazism, and that he was a closeted Racist, bigot, homophobe..

    Other examples of this would be, dressing up as Darth Vader, or Building a Tie Fighter, building a Klingon bird of prey, dressing up as a Romulan, etc..

    So his point was that, if you built nazi stuff, under this new PC thing we live in, that you have nazi/white nationalist sympathies, and should watch what you build.

    So just wanting your opinions on the subject, ( I will provide mine latter today, to not cloud any judgement) on If you build, or dress up, or have replica stuff, etc from a real or fictional "Evil Empire" is that considered Bad now?
     
  2. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Utter garbage. I made all sorts of model kits when I was young. Most of my friends did likewise. None of us grew up to be Nazi's. I had a great German Tiger tank though.

    Got a toy Tie fighter or two in my son's old toy box somewhere. Mind you, I am concerned that he might have fallen to the dark side...

    :hugegrin:
     
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  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Academically admiring the tools of an evil regime != Admiring the goals of an evil regime.

    Doubly-so if the regime is fictitious.

    That said, I might draw a line between building models and collecting memorabilia or such. And that line would be even thicker between, say, collecting Nazi memorabilia and buying Star Wars toys. Darth Vader didn't actually kill anyone, much less anyone belonging to specific minority demographics.
     
  4. Gary Mitchell

    Gary Mitchell Admiral Admiral

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    I always thought that I had a little Klingon in me.:klingon:
     
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  5. PSGarak

    PSGarak Commodore Commodore

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    I think there is a HUGE difference between fictitious villainy and real-world history. Model building is just that. Maybe they like the aesthetics, or the variety, or the challenge. Liking airplanes, tanks, weapons, ships, etc. is worlds away from supporting genocide or xenophobia.

    Memorabilia collecting falls into a grey area, but to be honest, I'd need more cues from someone than, "Has a couple of pieces of war memorabilia," to decide someone was a Nazi sympathizer. I have a few friends who are crazy into serial killers and collect stuff related to them. They're into the macabre and counter culture, not serial killers in the making or proponents of murder. People need to chill.
     
  6. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    [*place dirty joke of your choice here*]

    Hey, not all the Klingons were villains! Worf was a good guy. :p

    To the argument, there is a big difference between being interesting in history and making models of various tanks and, say, joyfully collecting Nazi memorabilia, fetishizing violence and cruelty, and worshiping despots and murderers.

    My husband is a big scifi fan, so his friends gave him a Darth Vader mug. That doesn't mean hubby is generally supportive of genocide and fascism. He loves scifi and Darth Vader is a famous character in a scifi film. However, if I walk into your home and you have Nazi flags framed on your walls and books about Idi Amin and Pol Pot on your coffee table, I'm running the fuck out because you're a total psycho.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  7. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Captain Captain

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    I've seen many "collections" of some people at model contests, many with Bf-109's or Me 262's, or Fw-190s etc. have like 15-20 on display.. Never in my mind did I think.. This guy must be a closet nazi ( Band name!) and should stear clear.. Nope.. Only thing I thought was 1. see if there any good, 2. Think, this guy/girl needs to branch out.. do a gundam or tank or something.. Owell.. Never have I thought, looking at the model tables.. Damn.. so many raycists.. :ack:
    Same for Sci fi Evil Empires, Take Gundam, the bad guys are the Zeons.. If I build a model kit of one of the vehicles.. do I support Gassing 5 million people inside a space colony? Ah.. nope.. It just a cool model, and sometimes, the bad guy kits are look better than the hero's stuff..

    Now if I go to said Me 262's guys house and see copies of Mien Kompf and some other things around.. then yeah.. won't stick around to long.. But even that said.. he/she just may be a history teacher... it really depends..

    So to me, as a blanket steriotype.. Ah Nope.. Do White nationalist model builders build german stuff?? Quite possible, but its such a low percentage that its kind of laughable to even think of grouping regular people in..
     
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  8. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Of course not, that’s silly. Collecting Nazi or Confederate memorabilia makes you a history nerd, not a racist.

    The exception of course is if the person shows emotional investment in the racist side’s cause and mission and not just their tech.
     
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  9. Spot's Meow

    Spot's Meow Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I agree that making models of Nazi planes or structures doesn't automatically prove affinity for the Nazi party itself.

    However, I do feel that the other "examples" you cited (Darth Vader, Klingons, etc.) are not really equivalent examples. There's a big difference between fictional bad guys and the actual killing of millions of people. I would not put collecting of Darth Vader memorabilia and collecting of Nazi memorabilia in the same boat at all.

    I would not think twice if someone had Darth Vader figures around their house. However, if someone had Nazi memorabilia/models around their house, it would make me wary. I would not automatically assume they were sympathetic to Nazi causes, and would prefer to hear them out about why they collect, but I would certainly feel uneasy and start to question how well I really know them. And I say this as a professional historian myself.

    I also think it's much less questionable if they're collecting Nazi memorabilia/making Nazi plane models along with other types of things they collect or make. Such as, they also make models of other kinds of planes from that era, and Nazi planes just happen to be more prevalent in the collection. But if they seem interested ONLY in the Nazi stuff, that is a bit concerning. Again, I wouldn't jump to automatic conclusions, but it would strike me as odd.
     
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  10. Doom Shepherd

    Doom Shepherd Commodore Commodore

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    If you looked at the bookshelves in my library you would see a lot of Nazi swastikas and Confederate flag motifs on the books.

    They're not there because I have an iota of sympathy for them, (two groups which I find excremental and believe should be utterly destroyed whenever encountered), but because I am an alternate history fan, and those are the two most commonly written-about periods of history.
     
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  11. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    There's also the phenomenon of some veterans keeping memorabilia of the opposing side as war trophies.

    Kor
     
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  12. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    A good litmus test is, when you talk to them about history, is it clear they are bad guys?

    One book that examines a similar question well is “Nazi Literature of the Americas”, a biography of fictional Nazi authors. Where the way he talks about them examines the author’s interest in Nazis.

    Do not read if you intend to ever read the book:

    In the last chapter the author writes himself into the biography, it’s about an author who is actively a murderer, and his friend is asking him to give away his location so he can murder him. And he decides to give up the location, because he decides his intellectual love for his work doesn’t override that he’s a monster.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  13. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    History is history - period. Remembering it - by any method - is a responsible thing to do. Trying to bury it, forget it - is foolishness and that old warning still applies: "Those who forget history, are condemned to repeat it."...

    I've built models since I was around 3 years old (snap together stuff at first) and I have built models of German Bf/Me 109's and Japanese Zeros - along with the Spitfire and P-51 Mustang (Corsairs, Hellcats...) that fought against them. I know quite well that Hitler was a racist "whole ass" and Tojo was as well (so was Stalin but, that's another matter).

    I can separate the equipment and weapons used by the villains of history from their actions. Anyone with a functional brain should be able to do so.
     
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  14. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course - here's the other aspect:

     
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  15. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I used to root for Team Rocket in Pokémon.

    Great bunch of lads
     
  16. Spot's Meow

    Spot's Meow Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    This is definitely true, but I don't know that everyday folks building models is necessary to remember our history. That history is documented in a multitude of ways, academic and not. One less Nazi plane model on the market (or even all of them taken off the market) would not take that away. It's similar to the arguments I've seen about the Confederate flag, that not displaying it would somehow equate to erasing that history. It's just not true at all, that history is still there for all to study and understand, and not displaying a flag would not remove any of that - it just removes that one instance of a flag.

    Having said all that, as I mentioned previously, I don't necessarily have an issue with models of Nazi planes being sold or enjoyed by those who build models. The context matters a great deal before jumping to any conclusions.
     
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  17. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How is a model of an actual aircraft (which happens to have been a very good plane for the day) inappropriate? Just because it might have a swastika on the tail?

    All methods of preserving history are equally appropriate. The Confederate Flag - and I presume you mean the "Battle Flag" and not the "Stainless Steel Banner" or any of the other actual national flags of the CSA - is just a symbol.

    While I do understand how it's been twisted (even further) by the racists, it's still just a piece of cloth... I was born and raised in Texas (part of the CSA during the Civil War) and that flag means nothing to me. The ol' Stars and Stripes - yep - I happen to be fond of that one.

    That whole "Sticks and stones..." thing is coming to mind again. We need to start growing thicker skin - and stop being so ridiculously sensitive and/or PC about everything. There is no actual benefit to that approach - there never was.

    Trying to hide from reality does not help anyone...
     
  18. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Greedo is Good, Till the Next Edit Moderator

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    I can't seem to find the thread, but I'm pretty sure we had a big debate in Misc. during the 2010 election about House contender Rich Iott from Ohio being a pretty hardcore 5th Waffen SS Panzer Division Wiking re-enactor up until a few years before he ran for office. I mean, he was decked out in full uniform and regalia and gear, they met in a beer hall filled with Nazi flags and memorabilia, the whole nine yards. He called it something he wanted to do that was fun for him and his son. You know, quality time, dressed as Nazi foreign volunteers who slaughtered Ukrainian and Hungarian Jews on the Eastern Front, among others.

    So Iott said it was his interest in history that made him pursue dressing up as a Nazi and that he in no way endorsed their ideology. But then when you start examining the group's whitewashed, minimized, and manipulated version of history where these were noble volunteers fighting against the scourge of Bolshevism, and then completely glossing over the atrocities they committed (going so far as to disconnect the group from the "real" Nazis in Germany), it sure came across as admiration for the SS rather than simply playing the baddies in a reenactment for historical, educational or filming purposes.

    What's Wrong With Nazi Reenacting
    Joshua Green - Oct 13, 2010
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/whats-wrong-with-nazi-reenacting/64489/

    And in Iott's own words and those of the group's website, you see they do everything they can to minimize the atrocities and it comes across as admiration:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-gop-house-candidate-dressed-as-a-nazi/64319/

    You see the same with a lot of Confederate reenactors. It was just a noble "lost cause" for state's rights (to own slaves, as enshrined in the declarations of the causes for secession of the various Confederate states). Statues and high school names and state flags honoring the Confederacy are just "heritage not hate." The Confederate battle flag is just a symbol and a piece of cloth (yes, a symbol that represents slavery to those whose ancestors were oppressed beneath it). Meanwhile, if someone tried to burn an American flag in protest today somehow I doubt they would consider it just a meaningless piece of cloth. If a player refused to stand for the National Anthem and took a knee to protest rampant police brutality and shootings of minorities would it still be just a cloth? Or does it carry weight and meaning as a symbol, good and bad?

    Yes, you can be a reenactor for purely historical purposes and that is a helpful educational tool, if you get the history correctly (the bad stuff too) and you're not absorbed in the part. And that goes for Union Calvary on the Plains too. It's not like we don't have our own share of atrocities to account for.

    But if I come in your house and it's decked out in Nazi or Confederate memorabilia and you start telling me how noble Robert E. Lee was, I'm hightailing it out of there.

    Fictional baddies I don't care about so much. The 501st Legion dresses up like Stormtroopers and Vader and do charity functions and visit sick children in hospitals. We had a guy who used to freak out about that here, but I think as long as no real people were hurt, we can overlook Alderaan and the Younglings.

    There are people who identify a little too much with Gul Dukat or the Sith or Magneto or Thanos and start posting shit like "Gul Dukat was right" or "Magneto was right" and will go into extensive detail about why they feel that way that indicates they'd probably believe some horrible shit IRL too, and they get the side eye.

    As far as model kits go, that seems harmless to me and just indicates an interest in aviation or tanks.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well...Thanos may have had a point, in a way, but AFAIK The Snap didn't discriminate either.
     
  20. nightwind1

    nightwind1 Commodore Commodore

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    Among the many models I build as a teen, I built an ME-262 and a Panzer tank. I didn't grow up to be a Nazi.
     
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