Spoilers The legacy of Star Trek: Picard?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Eddie Roth, Apr 23, 2023.

  1. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not talking about the Q stuff.

    The early episodes are set in an alternate timeline, wherein the Confederate versions of the characters go back in time and meet Guinan, who never met Picard in 1890s San Francisco due to the altered timeline. The later episodes instead take on a "this has always happened" approach, with Picard talking about the bullet holes in the walls of the Chateau that were there when he was growing up. So it was his own timeline all along somehow, except when it wasn't.
     
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  2. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The funny thing is that if you combined the three seasons into one condensed season, you could probably have something interesting. As it is, every season has its flaws, even if 3 is 'crowd pleasing' where the others simply are hated.
     
  3. Eddie Roth

    Eddie Roth Commodore Commodore

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    Ah, see I had wondered both times I saw the season why young Guinan didn't recognize Picard. But of course, if Confederate Picard never time traveled, that wouldn't be the case. Normally I'm good at explaining away such issues in time travel stories, but it goes to show that they added one level too many in this between the time travel, the altered future, and the involvement of Q.
     
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  4. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    I think them being "hated" was more to do with being victims of the Fandom Menace being more in its prime when they were released and the Fandom Menace getting more muted/siloed off in the past year or so (but you still see Major Grin, etc, take desperate cheap shots at Picard S3).

    I'd say Picard's legacy would be regarded as episodic TNG movies that were very Kelvin in execution and feel - S1 was very much like '09 Star Trek, annoying old fandom but making many necessary steps to keep Star Trek relevant in the 2020s and felt less safe than its successors, but its main story was a bit undercooked.

    S2 was like Into Darkness, more confident in a lot of ways, strong cast, and slick, but went after a lot low hanging creative fruit, and ended up middling (Into Darkness suffered from a weak Act 3, while S2 suffered from a weak Act 2).

    And Season 3 is clearly Star Trek Beyond, falling head first into fanwank, but it doesn't fully forget its predecessors in the process, keeping it grounded, and got a stronger story overall, with an ensemble cast in full swing (Beyond also borrowed heavily from TMP while S3 emulated TWoK).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
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  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And even that's a bit of a mess itself. Time's Arrow never happened because we're apparently attached to the Confederation timeline, yet TVH must have happened since the Punk on the Bus remembers Spock neck-pinching him.
     
  6. gvn2fly

    gvn2fly Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    2 head canon explanations: Confederate timeline Spock still had to go back in time to save the whales to prevent earth from being destroyed by the probe (unless the confederation was strong enough to destroy the probe).

    SInce the punk was still playing loud music on the bus after 30 years he was never neck pinched by Spock in that timeline. Him grabbing his neck was just an easter egg and not necessarily because of Spock.

    Ok, now I'm thinking how that works - presumably Guinan didn't know Picard because they were on the path to the confederation timeline..so she got those memories back when Renee's ship left..along with the memories of her not knowing Picard at one time.

    Now, let's say the punk changed his behavior after TVH and never rode the bus again..but because they were in the patch to the confederation timeline and he never encountered Spock then he's still been riding the bus for 30 years. What happens to his past once Renee's ship takes off? Is it altered as well so he disappears from those bus rides ?
     
  7. Orac Zen

    Orac Zen Mischief Manager Super Moderator

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    First, the original post in this thread is a great, thought-provoking read. Thank you.

    Same here. Like a few others I liked the first season a lot until the last couple of episodes which, a few moments aside, just didn't stick the landing. They had other moments that for me at least were just pure WTF (example - I found the gang's attitude switching from Narek being the abusive Romulan boyfriend to "let's go along with his plan!" ridiculous). The second season went from the alternate universe to the past to Picard's heretofore unknown trauma to frelling Q to Not!Laris to... All over the place, and not in a good way. It'll be quite a while before I revisit season 2.

    I hadn't thought of it like that, but I reckon it works for me as well.

    The way most of the cast was sidelined (or in the case of Beverly, reduced to mobile set decoration) in the movies was one of the real down sides of them. First Contact was slightly better than the others in that regard but that's not saying much. Yes, Data was / is a popular character but TNG was never about just him and Picard.

    That was certainly one of the things I liked best about TNG back in the day (and still do) - the notion, the hope, that at some point the human race as a whole is going to grow up, get over itself and move past all the petty, stupid crap that divides us to work together for the greater good. Plenty of people find that unrealistic and stupid and dislike TNG's so-called "flawless" characters and whatever, and that's fine. The optimism worked for me and for others, and the more bleak worldview of Picard certainly suggests that optimism has waned significantly. The more "realistic" cynicism won, I suppose. Yay?

    These sorts of blanket statements are always amusing. For you and some others, season 3 won't be rewatchable. For me and a different group of others, it will be. Equally amusing is the notion advanced by a few posters here and there that, given time, many people / everyone will dislike season 3 just as much as they do. It really doesn't work like that.

    I have no idea what the legacy of Star Trek Picard will be, but in the meantime this works for me. :mallory:
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see it this way. Optimism unchallenged is not always inspiring. It can be, but part of the appeal of TOS, DS9 and Discovery was that there was a challenge and to see those values carried through despite drastic and painful circumstances.
     
  9. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the show overall made some baffling choices and there were some decisions I wouldn’t have made but I don’t write shows, I only watch them. The legacy, I think, will be twofold: first, as others have mentioned, there’s dealing with trauma. That is inherent in all aspects of the characters and I think it’s something the show has done very well. The other is legacy. Even from the beginning, Picard has what almost can be considered a broken legacy. By the end, while it is a baffling choice for me personally, I get some love it, is the legacy of Enterprise continuing to the next generation.
     
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  10. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've yet to find anything redeeming about S1, but after thinking about it, I do appreciate what they tried to do in S2. It was a palpable failure, but killing off Q is a bold idea even if a lot of the other stuff failed for me.

    It was very much set up for the Jurati Borg Queen to fight off the Delta Borg Queen too, but of course that was never really going to happen.

    The problem is that they literally glossed over the trauma with a time jump and everything being fine, including Jack getting over killing who knows how many people.

    I know that Picard did the same thing, having a mud wrestle with his brother and solving all his problems the week after, but we also know that having any kind of sequel to Best of Both Worlds was a miracle at all and that Berman was initially against it.

    There was such a rush to end with the Enterprise-G and Ensign Jack that it wiped out anything they could have done with a post-Borg Starfleet where everyone under 25 is traumatized by what they've done.
     
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  11. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    Puzzled you can't get glean any joy from S1 and it was a very import season of NuTrek with hindsight (it was notably better than most of DSCO S1 and was solid bedrock for the more launded S3).

    The Borg Queen was the best thing about S2 and a launchpad for S3 for Captain Seven.
     
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  12. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I really didn't like S1 because of the extremely messy world building and was probably one of the few people who didn't like Nepenthe (which in hindsight, is maybe why I'm not as moved by S3 since it was basically Nepenthe for 10 episodes).

    It felt like they had no idea what they were doing with the blank canvas they had and created a pointless mess that was ultimately unsatisfying.

    I have no interest in revisiting the two seasons though, particularly since S3 basically insists that we just forget that they even exists. It's almost like the first two seasons of TNG in that regard, I suppose. lol
     
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  13. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm one of this board's top Terry Matalas "shills" and even I had major problems with that part.

    Keep in mind that season 1 went through several rounds of changes in direction and reshoots, so the final product being messy makes sense. I'd really like to see some kind of behind the scenes tell all, showing just what happened with James Duff, Michael Chabon, and Akiva Goldsman in season 1, why the Bruce Maddox arc was apparently cut short, and what the earlier permutations of season 2 were.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2023
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  14. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh I had no idea, but that explains why I remember the narrative feeling like such a mess.
     
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  15. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it's already been established:
    • "Maps and Legends" and "The End is the Beginning" were split and expanded from one episode
    • Originally Riker and Troi weren't to have appeared at all, and Admiral Sheer Fucking Hubris was to take the role of of meeting the Romulan Fleet over Planet Malibu (apparently the actress even filmed the scene)
    • "Nepenthe" was thus filmed much later
    • The original ending had Data's memories ending up in Soji
    • Rumors suggested Maddox would be the big villain for the season
    • Jeri Ryan has said her role was massively changed from when she signed on to when she got a final shooting script
    I wonder if there's a thread somewhere on this BBS from circa late 2019 / early 2020 with the 4chan and Reddit leaks?
     
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  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Season 3 would have much less impact on me if not for 1 and 2. Otherwise it would be wasted time ending back where it ended before.
     
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  17. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I assume Spiner had a three season contract which is why they kept dragging him back, but I would have vastly preferred if that happened and Soji was the the 'Data' of season 3.

    I did see Frakes mention that his return was very last minute since he was only prepared to direct episodes, not star in one.

    When they wrote Riker and Troi shitting on Nepenthe and didn't bother showing their daughter despite spending all the time on their son, I dunno, it just felt like they were telling you to forget S1 happened. lol
     
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  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Right; because that's how it works. :shrug:
     
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  19. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When the writers of the show, and potentially a sequel/spinoff of Picard, dismiss the previous seasons themselves, it's at least a sign of what impact it will have on any ongoing Star Trek material.
     
  20. hellojane

    hellojane Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I get being annoyed they didn't mention Troi and Riker's daughter in the last two but I really don't how much more they could have brought her up in the show than they did, especially if they weren't going to show her. She got brought up multiple times. If they added in the lines about her being in Starfleet now, then we would have had to have had them freaking out about her being a Borg too and that would have made the finale even more bloated. There wasn't really a good way to get her involved anyway since the whole thing basically took place on the Titan.

    They brought her up. They brought up the dead son. They brought up Data's death. They brought up Raffi's granddaughter and whatever that stuff was with her family. That doesn't scream "forget season 1". I think they lost a lot of the characterization from the first season, but a lot of the plot points remained.
     
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