The laughable "trial" in TUC

[Leto_II]

No, totally different circumstances I'm afraid.

Cpt. Louvois explains to Picard that Riker must act in the prosecution role given the remot nature of Starbase 173 and not having a staff. Regulations dictate that The duty falls to him.

I highly doubt that there was a lack of skilled legal professionals on Kronos, the Klingon Homeworld, who could have been called upon to prosecute over Kirk and McCoy. Professionals who weren't also caught up in performing as the Chief-Of -Staff for a newly appointed High Chancellor during one of the greatest crisis in the history of the empire.

I'm sorry, you can love Trek VI all you want, but it's a plot point that makes absolutely no logical sense no matter what way you turn it over in your mind. If you put it into any real world context, it is as inane and foolish as the Enterprise having 78 decks. Maybe even more inane and foolish.

That's making an incorrect cultural-equivalency comparison, though, assuming that the Klingon system of jurisprudence is precisely identical in all respects to Starfleet's. When we've seen numerous onscreen examples over the decades (well beyond even TUC) showing that it definitely isn't.

Why does General Chang stepping into the role of prosecutor have to have an exact counterpart in the Federation legal system for it to suddenly make story-sense? The Klingon Empire isn't the Federation, and shouldn't be expected to adhere to the same identical cultural and political characteristics.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The actor playing the Klingon judge wasn't very good. If he'd just talked normal, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad, but he almost ruins the scene!

 

[FormerLurker]

You don't think an old man would have a gravelly voice? For all we know, that was the actor's normal speaking voice.

 

[eyeresist]

^ He does talk odd, but I like him. He kinda talks like a pirate.

 

[FormerLurker]

"AARRRRR!"

 

[eyeresist]

Maybe instead of Space Samurai, Klingons should be pirates. Treasure caches, peg-legs and walking the plank. Yes, that could work...

 

[Ithekro]

How many instances of Klingon trails do we have. Aren't most of them have the prosecutor as one of the injured party? Duras, Chang, Duras, others?

 

[2takesfrakes]

^ He does talk odd, but I like him. He kinda talks like a pirate.

YES! And Chang looks like a pirate with his eye-patch and ... and everything! There is definitely a pirate texture or flavour to the Klingons, this time around. So like Nick Meyer to put that in there ... "Nautical but Nice." That's how he likes his STAR TREK!

 

[Vger23]

No, totally different circumstances I'm afraid.

Cpt. Louvois explains to Picard that Riker must act in the prosecution role given the remot nature of Starbase 173 and not having a staff. Regulations dictate that The duty falls to him.

I highly doubt that there was a lack of skilled legal professionals on Kronos, the Klingon Homeworld, who could have been called upon to prosecute over Kirk and McCoy. Professionals who weren't also caught up in performing as the Chief-Of -Staff for a newly appointed High Chancellor during one of the greatest crisis in the history of the empire.

I'm sorry, you can love Trek VI all you want, but it's a plot point that makes absolutely no logical sense no matter what way you turn it over in your mind. If you put it into any real world context, it is as inane and foolish as the Enterprise having 78 decks. Maybe even more inane and foolish.

That's making an incorrect cultural-equivalency comparison, though, assuming that the Klingon system of jurisprudence is precisely identical in all respects to Starfleet's. When we've seen numerous onscreen examples over the decades (well beyond even TUC) showing that it definitely isn't.

Why does General Chang stepping into the role of prosecutor have to have an exact counterpart in the Federation legal system for it to suddenly make story-sense? The Klingon Empire isn't the Federation, and shouldn't be expected to adhere to the same identical cultural and political characteristics.

I'm really sorry, but no amount of well intended rationalizing is going to change my mind on this one. It was bad writing, pure and simple. It is an implausible plot development no matter what the Klingon culture is like. High ranking politician in a time of crisis is absolutely not the right person to be prosecuting in this case. It was done as a plot device to create drama and solidify Chang as the primary villain. That is all.

It is one of many things about Star Trek VI that I find to be unimpressive and generally sloppy.

 

[JWPlatt]

Don't you think it's possible that the Klingon with the biggest grudge and most power wins the chance to beat Kirk, either by right or by force? I can imagine this happening in the more radical parts of our own world.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No, totally different circumstances I'm afraid.

Cpt. Louvois explains to Picard that Riker must act in the prosecution role given the remot nature of Starbase 173 and not having a staff. Regulations dictate that The duty falls to him.

I highly doubt that there was a lack of skilled legal professionals on Kronos, the Klingon Homeworld, who could have been called upon to prosecute over Kirk and McCoy. Professionals who weren't also caught up in performing as the Chief-Of -Staff for a newly appointed High Chancellor during one of the greatest crisis in the history of the empire.

I'm sorry, you can love Trek VI all you want, but it's a plot point that makes absolutely no logical sense no matter what way you turn it over in your mind. If you put it into any real world context, it is as inane and foolish as the Enterprise having 78 decks. Maybe even more inane and foolish.

That's making an incorrect cultural-equivalency comparison, though, assuming that the Klingon system of jurisprudence is precisely identical in all respects to Starfleet's. When we've seen numerous onscreen examples over the decades (well beyond even TUC) showing that it definitely isn't.

Why does General Chang stepping into the role of prosecutor have to have an exact counterpart in the Federation legal system for it to suddenly make story-sense? The Klingon Empire isn't the Federation, and shouldn't be expected to adhere to the same identical cultural and political characteristics.

I'm really sorry, but no amount of well intended rationalizing is going to change my mind on this one. It was bad writing, pure and simple. It is an implausible plot development no matter what the Klingon culture is like. High ranking politician in a time of crisis is absolutely not the right person to be prosecuting in this case. It was done as a plot device to create drama and solidify Chang as the primary villain. That is all.

It is one of many things about Star Trek VI that I find to be unimpressive and generally sloppy.

Dramatically, it was done for those reasons.

However, it's also perfectly in-character for Chang to insist upon leading the prosecution himself. And who was going to tell him "no"?

 

[Ithekro]

Also that is one less character you have to introduce (the Prosecutor). Having the defense be Colonel Worf was one thing, but if the prosecutor had been a Duras, that would have just taken the blood feud back that much farther.

 

[eyeresist]

^ He does talk odd, but I like him. He kinda talks like a pirate.

YES! And Chang looks like a pirate with his eye-patch and ... and everything! There is definitely a pirate texture or flavour to the Klingons, this time around. So like Nick Meyer to put that in there ... "Nautical but Nice." That's how he likes his STAR TREK!

I hadn't thought of the Meyer connection, but yes, that makes a lot of sense. (He must have loved that scene in GEN.)

 

[2takesfrakes]

Another Pirate aspect to TUC was when Chang fires on ENTERPRISE the first time cloaked. Just prior to the button being pressed, the Klingon helmsman is either spinning a wheel, or acting like he's spinning a wheel, like what boats have to turn it. It's not focused on, but this is going on right behind Chang's shoulder while he's talking about them going "Once more unto the breach."

 

[Grendelsbayne]

No, totally different circumstances I'm afraid.

Cpt. Louvois explains to Picard that Riker must act in the prosecution role given the remot nature of Starbase 173 and not having a staff. Regulations dictate that The duty falls to him.

I highly doubt that there was a lack of skilled legal professionals on Kronos, the Klingon Homeworld, who could have been called upon to prosecute over Kirk and McCoy. Professionals who weren't also caught up in performing as the Chief-Of -Staff for a newly appointed High Chancellor during one of the greatest crisis in the history of the empire.

I'm sorry, you can love Trek VI all you want, but it's a plot point that makes absolutely no logical sense no matter what way you turn it over in your mind. If you put it into any real world context, it is as inane and foolish as the Enterprise having 78 decks. Maybe even more inane and foolish.

That's making an incorrect cultural-equivalency comparison, though, assuming that the Klingon system of jurisprudence is precisely identical in all respects to Starfleet's. When we've seen numerous onscreen examples over the decades (well beyond even TUC) showing that it definitely isn't.

Why does General Chang stepping into the role of prosecutor have to have an exact counterpart in the Federation legal system for it to suddenly make story-sense? The Klingon Empire isn't the Federation, and shouldn't be expected to adhere to the same identical cultural and political characteristics.

I'm really sorry, but no amount of well intended rationalizing is going to change my mind on this one. It was bad writing, pure and simple. It is an implausible plot development no matter what the Klingon culture is like. High ranking politician in a time of crisis is absolutely not the right person to be prosecuting in this case. It was done as a plot device to create drama and solidify Chang as the primary villain. That is all.

It is one of many things about Star Trek VI that I find to be unimpressive and generally sloppy.

Personally, I would say that insisting that *alien civilizations* must act in the same way as (your preffered) human civilization acts would be bad writing, unimpressive and generally sloppy. The idea that the principles of justice should be viewed the same way by the Klingons as by the Federation is completely laughable, especially in light of the fact that our one little species on this one little world doesn't even adhere to that expectation of uniformity.

 

[dub]

And then there was that ENT episode that ripped off TUC.

Now that was laughable.

 

[Vger23]

That's making an incorrect cultural-equivalency comparison, though, assuming that the Klingon system of jurisprudence is precisely identical in all respects to Starfleet's. When we've seen numerous onscreen examples over the decades (well beyond even TUC) showing that it definitely isn't.

Why does General Chang stepping into the role of prosecutor have to have an exact counterpart in the Federation legal system for it to suddenly make story-sense? The Klingon Empire isn't the Federation, and shouldn't be expected to adhere to the same identical cultural and political characteristics.

I'm really sorry, but no amount of well intended rationalizing is going to change my mind on this one. It was bad writing, pure and simple. It is an implausible plot development no matter what the Klingon culture is like. High ranking politician in a time of crisis is absolutely not the right person to be prosecuting in this case. It was done as a plot device to create drama and solidify Chang as the primary villain. That is all.

It is one of many things about Star Trek VI that I find to be unimpressive and generally sloppy.

Personally, I would say that insisting that *alien civilizations* must act in the same way as (your preffered) human civilization acts would be bad writing, unimpressive and generally sloppy. The idea that the principles of justice should be viewed the same way by the Klingons as by the Federation is completely laughable, especially in light of the fact that our one little species on this one little world doesn't even adhere to that expectation of uniformity.

I'm sorry, but trying to say that the writers intentionally had "alien justice systems" in mind when they decided to have Christopher Plummer as the prosecutor in the court room scene is the worst kind of excuse making and rationalization I have seen in a long time. It was nothing of the sort.

Chang was the "bad guy" therefore he had to do "bad guy things" like accuse Kirk and McCoy of murder. Plummer is an excellent actor, therefore he needs to get a juicy scene, being literary and making historical references due to his Shakespear training, prosecuting Kirk and McCoy.

That's sloppy writing.

I know a lot of fans have a soft spot in their hearts for this film, and therefore make excuses for stuff in it that is generally crap. I like it too. That doesn't change my opinion that it was a sloppy, rushed production and an overindulgent and pretentious script influenced by Nick Meyer.

 

[eyeresist]

I'm sorry, but trying to say that the writers intentionally had "alien justice systems" in mind when they decided to have Christopher Plummer as the prosecutor in the court room scene is the worst kind of excuse making and rationalization I have seen in a long time. It was nothing of the sort.

They may not have had it consciously in mind, but it's a perfectly acceptable rationalisation for the scene.

THERE IS NO REASON KLINGON JUSTICE SHOULD RESEMBLE EARTH'S, LET ALONE THE U.S.A'S.

 

[JWPlatt]

The justice system read the script.

 

[Memory Alpha]

Turning back the clock to '91, it's allegorical. Yes, it's probably edited in a way that leaves much to be desired, but also look at how it's written. TUC is not a courtroom drama. What's going on here is that the "trial" is probably old guard Soviet/totalitarian allegory. You're hauled in for a trial as a political enemy, and well, it's completely forgone that you will be "found" guilty. What bothers me is how the Federation people seem to think that Kirk might possibly get a fair trial. There's no chance. That undermines it all. The Federation President's milquetoast response to it all was the big issue. I mean, who is supposed to have the upper hand here?