The laughable "trial" in TUC

[Kor]

^ Gorkon presided over the high council. The various council members undoubtedly held a lot of power. So it would probably be very hard for him to act unilaterally in anything. He probably ended up being more of a referee and spokesman much of the time.

Also, though only one judge spoke, there was more than one overseeing the trial. Chang and Worf say "your honors", plural. And you can see at least one other person back there when the main judge strikes his sparky gavel. Perhaps the judges held sway with the high council.

Kor

 

[2takesfrakes]

Dramatic effect is enough rationalization for me.

... Same, here.

 

[Leto_II]

I agree that this, like several other sequences in the film, is boarderline garbage. It is a hacked-together scene, much like the dinner scene, with hardly any continuity or logic. I've always, from opening day on Dec 6 at a noon showing, thought that "Chang as the prosecutor" was a crappy and bogus development, despite the valiant rationalizing some have attempted here.

Chang standing as the prosecution is not any more contrived or odd than, for example, Commander Riker getting drafted against his will to serve as the Starfleet prosecutor in TNG's "The Measure of a Man," and in fact makes more sense than this, especially if Chang actively campaigned for the job with a largely-sympathetic High Council or Klingon judiciary following Kirk and McCoy's capture.

The precedent for this had definitely already been set previously in filmed Star Trek, with TNG's depiction of the Federation's adversarial process (c.f., "Measure," "The Drumhead"). And for the Klingons, the job seemed as much political as legal for Chang in the film, which implies that their system differs significantly from our usual expectations of how "western"/Starfleet jurisprudence tends to operate.

 

[Ithekro]

I am wondering if Kirk surrendering was part of the original plan. The need for a trail wouldn't even be there had Kirk raised his shields and likely returned fire on Chang.

War started. Everyone uis happy, movie over. (wait)

 

[Starborn Dragon]

I would NOT use this one trial as basing the entire Klingon justice system.

This was a special high profile case, like the OJ Simpson trial.

So of course there's going to be showboating for the ratings.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

When he was prosecuting them he got angry to some extent, but it didn't seem like he was really that upset and when's he berating the hell out of Kirk and seems to be enjoying it helped the clue phone ring that "Yep....Chang is behind it."

Chang being the bad guy is not such a big reveal. It's hinted at as soon as Gorkon's party beams over to the Enterprise and Chang confronts Kirk directly.

The conspiracy being shared between the Klingons and the Federation is the bigger reveal.

 

[JWPlatt]

I thought you all knew:

Klingon justice is a unique point of view.

 

[Vger23]

I think this is yet another example of fans doing the "this movie is universally beloved, so it gets a pass" dance.

Chang acting as a prosecutor is one of the more preposterous things in a film filled with contrivances and convenient plot devices.

I have said it before, and it stands saying again: Star Trek VI is not a well written film.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Chang's special status as a high ranking General might have gotten him the ability to bully his way into the court system and allow him to prosecute.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Has there ever actually been any direct reference to Klingons being specially trained in law? Was Col. Worf actually stated to be a legal expert of any kind or was he just the guy who was appointed to defend Kirk and Mccoy?

It seems to me that professional lawyers aren't a very likely part of Klingon society to begin with. Klingon culture is focused almost exclusively on two things: Honor and Politics, so it would make perfect sense for me to say that the Klingon judicial system would appoint prosecutors and defenders based solely on their military/political status, or that it would typically require the accusers and defenders to personally handle their own cases (something which would be waived for Kirk and McCoy, since they have no knowledge of Klingon law).

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Given how often personal grievances among Klingons are resolved with what are apparently perfectly legal duels to the death, and how much Klingon culture revolves around a "might makes right" mentality, I'd be surprised if they have a particularly well-developed legal system. In fact, it would be in keeping with their cultural values that the person to prosecute a case would have some personal connection to the victim--essentially acting as the victim's proxy in the courtroom. Chang being Gorkon's military advisor seems like a rather close affiliation, to me. The idea of a Klingon prosecutor representing the state or the Empire would strike me as pretty weird and, dare I say it, un-Klingon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Klingons do have a legal system of some kind. JG Hertzler played a Klingon defense attorney in an episode of ENT. He talked of the old days when Klingon courts really were about justice.

 

[eyeresist]

^ ENT episode "Judgment". Not an outstanding episode but it has some interest. Apart from being an overt tribute to TUC, the point seems to be that the Klingon justice system has deteriorated to being a tool of the warrior class. From fair trials to show trials.

The episode ends with the Klingon defence lawyer saying he will fight for justice with renewed spirit - unfortunately thanks to TUC we know his efforts were ultimately futile.

 

[Leto_II]

I think this is yet another example of fans doing the "this movie is universally beloved, so it gets a pass" dance.

Chang acting as a prosecutor is one of the more preposterous things in a film filled with contrivances and convenient plot devices.

I have said it before, and it stands saying again: Star Trek VI is not a well written film.

Again, though: How is this any more preposterous than Riker getting dragooned against his will into being the Starfleet prosecution in "The Measure of a Man" for no other logical reason than because a superior officer simply says, "You're doing it, that's an order" -- a plot-development that I've never seen taken to task for its own gimmickry in the decades since its first broadcast?

"Measure" is still considered to be one of the best-written TNG episodes of all time (including by myself), yet this was a plot-device implemented more for dramatic shock reasons than anything else, and if anything has ever gotten a total free pass from the fandom despite its contrivances, it's that episode, not TUC.

 

[Kor]

^ And "Measure of a Man" was written by a former attorney, no less (Melinda Snodgrass).

Kor

 

[MacLeod]

It seems likely that what we witnessed in TUC was a military tribunal of sorts rather than a civillian case. The rules of conduct might be different. We are dealing with a made up legal system here, just because we find it unacceptable by our standards of how a legal system works doesn't mean it's wrong by Klingon standards.

And remember even today we have various legal systems in operation two of the main ones being Common Law (found mainly in countries that where once part of the British Empire) and Civil Law (ties to late Roman Law/ Napoleonic code and others)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How is this any more preposterous than Riker getting dragooned against his will into being the Starfleet prosecution in "The Measure of a Man" for no other logical reason than because a superior officer simply says, "You're doing it, that's an order"

In that case, there was simply a shortage of legal personnel available. Not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

We don't know if Riker has any kind of certification in terms of law (whether he specialized in it while at the Academy) but the reason he was pressed into service was simply that he was the next most senior officer present, after Picard of course.

 

[Zaku]

How is this any more preposterous than Riker getting dragooned against his will into being the Starfleet prosecution in "The Measure of a Man" for no other logical reason than because a superior officer simply says, "You're doing it, that's an order"

In that case, there was simply a shortage of legal personnel available. Not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

We don't know if Riker has any kind of certification in terms of law (whether he specialized in it while at the Academy) but the reason he was pressed into service was simply that he was the next most senior officer present, after Picard of course.

I never understood all the hurry in the episode. We are talking about the rights of an artificial being. It doesn't seem a matter of little importance. Surely you can wait a few days/weeks for people more qualifed..? (Yes I know. Dramatic license)

 

[BeatleJWOL]

I never understood all the hurry in the episode. We are talking about the rights of an artificial being. It doesn't seem a matter of little importance. Surely you can wait a few days/weeks for people more qualifed..? (Yes I know. Dramatic license)

When that artificial being is getting ready to walk out the door, it became an emergency situation from the JAG perspective.

I suppose they could have courtmartialed Data for defying the transfer orders, but once again you run into the same situation.

 

[Vger23]

I think this is yet another example of fans doing the "this movie is universally beloved, so it gets a pass" dance.

Chang acting as a prosecutor is one of the more preposterous things in a film filled with contrivances and convenient plot devices.

I have said it before, and it stands saying again: Star Trek VI is not a well written film.

Again, though: How is this any more preposterous than Riker getting dragooned against his will into being the Starfleet prosecution in "The Measure of a Man" for no other logical reason than because a superior officer simply says, "You're doing it, that's an order" -- a plot-development that I've never seen taken to task for its own gimmickry in the decades since its first broadcast?

"Measure" is still considered to be one of the best-written TNG episodes of all time (including by myself), yet this was a plot-device implemented more for dramatic shock reasons than anything else, and if anything has ever gotten a total free pass from the fandom despite its contrivances, it's that episode, not TUC.

No, totally different circumstances I'm afraid.

Cpt. Louvois explains to Picard that Riker must act in the prosecution role given the remot nature of Starbase 173 and not having a staff. Regulations dictate that The duty falls to him.

I highly doubt that there was a lack of skilled legal professionals on Kronos, the Klingon Homeworld, who could have been called upon to prosecute over Kirk and McCoy. Professionals who weren't also caught up in performing as the Chief-Of -Staff for a newly appointed High Chancellor during one of the greatest crisis in the history of the empire.

I'm sorry, you can love Trek VI all you want, but it's a plot point that makes absolutely no logical sense no matter what way you turn it over in your mind. If you put it into any real world context, it is as inane and foolish as the Enterprise having 78 decks. Maybe even more inane and foolish.