The laughable "trial" in TUC

[Kor]

Yes, it was a show trial, and standards of justice undoubtedly vary by culture, such as the Cardassian standard of "guilty until proven innocent."

But Kirk and McCoy's trial barely made any attempt to even look credible!

The trial ends thusly:

Chang: "Captain Kirk, are you aware that under Federation law, the Captain of a Starship is considered responsible for the actions of his men?"
Kirk: "I am."
Chang: "So if it should prove members of your crew did in fact carry out such an assassination?"
...
Kirk: "As Captain I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command."
Chang: "Your honors, the State rests."

The state rests on what?

They established Kirk would have command responsibility in such a hypothetical scenario... but they never actually 'proved that members of his crew did in fact carry out such an assassination'! The evidence was "entirely circumstantial" as Colonel Worf said. But judgment was passed anyway.

And so the Klingon legal system looks like a complete joke on the galactic geopolitical scene.

Please discuss.

Kor

 

[mos6507]

Kor, why would you not approve? Was Klingon justice not harsh on Organia? Surely you don't want to hold Klingons to human standards of justice, do you?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Please discuss.

The big problem with the trial in Star Trek VI is the way it's edited. It feels like we're missing big, important parts so we can understand what's happening.

As for your specific question, I interpreted the Klingon justice system as "guilty until proven innocent." And that Kirk and McCoy were convicted not because of anything they had done but because others from the Enterprise had done something; Kirk's admission that he was responsible for their actions doomed himself and the Doctor to Rura Penthe.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Yes, it was a show trial, and standards of justice undoubtedly vary by culture, such as the Cardassian standard of "guilty until proven innocent."

But Kirk and McCoy's trial barely made any attempt to even look credible!

The trial ends thusly:

Chang: "Captain Kirk, are you aware that under Federation law, the Captain of a Starship is considered responsible for the actions of his men?"
Kirk: "I am."
Chang: "So if it should prove members of your crew did in fact carry out such an assassination?"
...
Kirk: "As Captain I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command."
Chang: "Your honors, the State rests."

The state rests on what?

They established Kirk would have command responsibility in such a hypothetical scenario... but they never actually 'proved that members of his crew did in fact carry out such an assassination'!

And so the Klingon legal system looks like a complete joke on the galactic geopolitical scene.

Please discuss.

Kor

And besides why, other than for obvious dramatic effect, would freaking CHANG be the prosecutor for the state? Klingons clearly have people trained to be lawyers, as is evidenced by the fact Kirk and McCoy had Worf as theirs.

I don't read the novels or anything but isn't Chang pretty much a warrior first and last? Did he study for his law degree in his spare time when he wasn't killing enemies?

Even if on the extremely remote chance he had a law degree would he really be appointed the lead prosecutor of a case where he was one of the people attacked and was right next to McCoy and Kirk as Gorkon died? Seems to me that, even by Klingon standards, there would be an obvious conflict of intrest based on his personal experience in the crime.

Even though it was a show trial and they were going to be found guilty no matter what. I imagine because they were going to give the peace process another go, that some pretty high up Klingon leaders believed that if they wouldn't survive as a race without Federation help. If that's the case I would think the Klingons world try as hard as possible to give at least the APPEARANCE of the trial being fair and unbiased before throwing two highly decorated starfleet officers in prison for life. Or the Federation might get pissed that they didn't give them even a slightly fair trial and say "Screw off" and drop out of peace negotiations. Throwing Chang out as the prosecutor doesn't exactly scream "impartial" and "fair"

It required for all Klingon officers to also be skilled lawyers too?

 

[FormerLurker]

Chang had probably been appointed Gorkon's chief of staff because of his lawyer training, regardless of how effective it actually was. Further, it was a show trial, with a foregone conclusion that Kirk and whoever was with him would be found guilty. It was only the judge(or perhaps even higher ranked than that) having the good sense to appease the Federation as well that saw them sentenced to life imprisonment rather than death.

 

[Kor]

And besides why, other than for obvious dramatic effect, would freaking CHANG be the prosecutor for the state? Klingons clearly have people trained to be lawyers, as is evidenced by the fact Kirk and McCoy had Worf as theirs.

I don't read the novels or anything but isn't Chang pretty much a warrior first and last? Did he study for his law degree in his spare time when he wasn't killing enemies?

Even if on the extremely remote chance he had a law degree would he really be appointed the lead prosecutor of a case where he was one of the people attacked and was right next to McCoy and Kirk as Gorkon died? Seems to me that, even by Klingon standards, there would be an obvious conflict of intrest based on his personal experience in the crime.

Even though it was a show trial and they were going to be found guilty no matter what. I imagine because they were going to give the peace process another go, that some pretty high up Klingon leaders believed that if they wouldn't survive as a race without Federation help. If that's the case I would think the Klingons world try as hard as possible to give at least the APPEARANCE of the trial being fair and unbiased before throwing two highly decorated starfleet officers in prison for life. Or the Federation might get pissed that they didn't give them even a slightly fair trial and say "Screw off" and drop out of peace negotiations. Throwing Chang out as the prosecutor doesn't exactly scream "impartial" and "fair"

It required for all Klingon officers to also be skilled lawyers too?

The question of Chang's qualifications as a lawyer doesn't quite bother me in itself. Maybe being Chief of Staff to the Chancellor automatically gave Chang authority in the justice system... kind of like how the US President is automatically commander-in-chief of the armed forces (I know that's an imprecise comparison).

By the time period of TUC, Klingons are apparently expected to be warriors first and foremost, so other specializations must be secondary to that. Kirk and McCoy's public defender had the military rank of Colonel, and he was referred to as such instead of "counselor".

But qualifications aside, I think it's very questionable that the arresting officer at the scene of the crime would be used as the prosecuting counsel. He should have been used as a witness instead.

Kor

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Chang had probably been appointed Gorkon's chief of staff because of his lawyer training, regardless of how effective it actually was. Further, it was a show trial, with a foregone conclusion that Kirk and whoever was with him would be found guilty. It was only the judge(or perhaps even higher ranked than that) having the good sense to appease the Federation as well that saw them sentenced to life imprisonment rather than death.

Yeah you're right that they commuted the death penalty to appease the Federation.

It seems to me though that the most important element, at least from the Federation's POV, would be that the Klingons give Kirk and McCoy a trial that at looked like it was trying to be fair, even if their fate had been predetermined.

When you throw out someone as the prosecutor who was a victim of the "crime" vowed to blow them out of the stars and was right next to his leader as he died from the assassination. Again seems to me there's a slight conflict of interest and the Federation would say wait a second.

Unless they really didn't care about what happened to Kirk and McCoy, in which case is a pretty piss poor way to treat your own comrades.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes, it was a show trial, and standards of justice undoubtedly vary by culture, such as the Cardassian standard of "guilty until proven innocent."

But Kirk and McCoy's trial barely made any attempt to even look credible!

The trial ends thusly:

Chang: "Captain Kirk, are you aware that under Federation law, the Captain of a Starship is considered responsible for the actions of his men?"
Kirk: "I am."
Chang: "So if it should prove members of your crew did in fact carry out such an assassination?"
...
Kirk: "As Captain I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command."
Chang: "Your honors, the State rests."

The state rests on what?

They established Kirk would have command responsibility in such a hypothetical scenario... but they never actually 'proved that members of his crew did in fact carry out such an assassination'! The evidence was "entirely circumstantial" as Colonel Worf said. But judgment was passed anyway.

And so the Klingon legal system looks like a complete joke on the galactic geopolitical scene.

Please discuss.

Kor

We'll the Cardassian judical system only has one outcome guilty, O'Brein got off simply because it would have caused more damage to central command if the affair had been exposed.

As for the Klingon system, in TUC as you say it was a show trail, the outcome was predetermined. So it's not really a true reflection on how the Klingon justice might work. As for it being a cirumstantial case, don't we have those type of cases in our justice systems today?

 

[martok2112]

Worf's challenge to the Klingon High Council was about as much a "show trial" as the trial in TUC. The prosecutor was Duras, a warrior from a less than noble house, the verdict was already determined, and Worf got a "commuted" death sentence as well. (Offering to accept discommendation in lieu of death to serve the Empire's purpose, as well as save it.)

This seemed to serve as a partial basis (screenplay wise) for how the TUC trial played out.

 

[Kor]

And then there was that ENT episode that ripped off TUC.

Kor

 

[JRoss]

In ancient Israel the accuser had to act as the prosecution. Maybe the Klingons allow for something similar.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

In ancient Israel the accuser had to act as the prosecution. Maybe the Klingons allow for something similar.

Hmmmmm interesting theory.

It wasn't a bad scene but I think it might have been better if they had some regular Kilngon prosecutor and then Chang is called as witness and he starts to recount the events calmly and eventually works himself into such a lather that he's literally screaming at Kirk about the type of person he is and the "crime" he committed.

I also think, not that it was that hard to guess anyway, if he is a witness and he gets all emotional over Kirk's actions and how they led to the murder of his leader a man he says he greatly loved and respected.....it might have planted a seed of doubt in the audience's mind that said "Hmmmmm maybe Chang isn't behind this after all."

When he was prosecuting them he got angry to some extent, but it didn't seem like he was really that upset and when's he berating the hell out of Kirk and seems to be enjoying it helped the clue phone ring that "Yep....Chang is behind it."

 

[Vger23]

I agree that this, like several other sequences in the film, is boarderline garbage. It is a hacked-together scene, much like the dinner scene, with hardly any continuity or logic. I've always, from opening day on Dec 6 at a noon showing, thought that "Chang as the prosecutor" was a crappy and bogus development, despite the valiant rationalizing some have attempted here.

It is another major example of why I consider TUC to be amongst the weakest of the original films.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

I think Meyer was experimenting with jump cutting during the trial and the dinner scenes. The result was jarring and confusing and has never sat well with me in what is otherwise a pretty decent film.

 

[Melakon]

And then there was that ENT episode that ripped off TUC.

It wasn't as much a rip-off as it was an intentional acknowledgement. Berman could have vetoed it at any time.

 

[Timo]

I don't see why this "conflict of interest" thing should apply. There is no conflict - Chang wants to see the criminal hang, just like the prosecution ought to! Sure, there's personal involvement and thus personal bias, but that's no doubt just a welcome addition in the Klingon culture - why give the job to somebody who lacks passion?

Was this trial set up in order to make the Klingons look good? I highly doubt that. Chang wants to promote conflict, not placate anybody, and it doesn't look as if there are too many people of power in the Empire who would oppose that goal and instead support the late Gorkon. A likelier reason for the trial was to show the Klingon Empire itself that justice was being served, Klingon style. While the trial made Kirk look especially evil and therefore supported Chang's policies, it need not have differed much from regular Klingon legal practice. A real court certainly could work just as shown here, with certain basic assumptions being quite different from those used in current US or British or German courts so familiar from television...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mos6507]

And besides why, other than for obvious dramatic effect, would freaking CHANG be the prosecutor for the state? Klingons clearly have people trained to be lawyers, as is evidenced by the fact Kirk and McCoy had Worf as theirs.

Dramatic effect is enough rationalization for me. They managed to convince Christopher Plummer to put on Klingon makeup (a real coup) and they tried to get as much screen-time out of him as they could, which meant letting him ham it up in the trial. Fine by me, IMHO.

The whole film kind of revolves around his Shakespearean stylings, literally.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm actually wondering whether the judge was in on it. When he orders the death sentence be commuted, Chang is clearly confused...like "this wasn't part of the plan".

 

[eyeresist]

This argument about conflict of interest and who is qualified to prosecute is beside the point. There's no reason the Klingon justice system would resemble Earth's. As for worrying about offending the Federation, they probably judged (and rightly) that the Fed would rather lose a couple of officers and make peace than risk a war. The US has tolerated worse for the sake of a quiet life.

 

[FormerLurker]

I'm actually wondering whether the judge was in on it. When he orders the death sentence be commuted, Chang is clearly confused...like "this wasn't part of the plan".

This is the reason I think the judge was more than just a judge. Chang may have been Gorkon's chief of staff, but he only had minimal political power in that position. The judge clearly had more than Chang did, and used it to try to keep the peace process on point. Chang and his band of conspirators had other ideas, and meant to keep trying until real war broke out. But where did the judge get his political clout? He must be somewhere near Gorkon's level of authority to be able to commute the sentences on the spur of the moment like he did. I wonder if Gorkon really was a singular leader of the Empire as so many assume.