The Kobayashi Maru Test

[trampledamage]

As a passing phrase, calling the no-win scenario the "Kobayashi Maru" test was okay, but it makes no sense at all as an actual test.

The only way such a test makes sense is if it is a random simulation among many other simulations that the cadets do not know which is which in advance.

Therefore the ship in distress cannot always be the Kobayashi Maru - that would give it away a little!

I suppose it can have got the slang name "Kobayashi Maru" after the Kirk incident, since everyone would be talking about it.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

As a passing phrase, calling the no-win scenario the "Kobayashi Maru" test was okay, but it makes no sense at all as an actual test.

The only way such a test makes sense is if it is a random simulation among many other simulations that the cadets do not know which is which in advance.

Therefore the ship in distress cannot always be the Kobayashi Maru - that would give it away a little!

I suppose it can have got the slang name "Kobayashi Maru" after the Kirk incident, since everyone would be talking about it.

The scenarios continually change to always ensure failure. Regardless of how much you know or how many people took the same test it will always bring about a new scenario to ensure defeat.

 

[Ovation]

I too agree that the Kobayashi Maru was horribly mishandled in XI. Mainly that Kirk just made it too obvious he was cheating. After all, he doesn't bother doing anything until after the computers flicker and suddenly the program is drastically different (Klingons no longer have their sheilds raised). This was not how I pictured the Kobayashi Maru when I first heard about in TWOK, and not a very good depiction of it. I think this is the first time I can legitimately say my childhood has been raped.

Did you think Kirk was trying to be genuinely dishonest during his test then? Do you think Kirk was trying to pass the test or do you think he was doing it to make a point?

Frankly, I'd rather think Kirk is not an academic cheat; Kirk prime especially.

I'm starting to wonder how much experience those of you who take issue with Kirk's openess know about academic honesty or take it seriously. Personally, it took some experiences in college where a friend plagiarized me to really get to where I am on the subject.

I was expecting Kirk to be subtle about his cheating. Perhaps, have everything set up prior to the test's beginning, then have things so that maybe the Klingons as just slightly less efficient than they are normally.

Instead, program begins, Kirk slouches in his chair. Computers blink. Kirk's like "Okay, fire a torpedo at each ship." Each ship destroyed in one shot. Kirk eats apple with undeserved sense of accomplishment.

The whole point is to show his frustration with the test. If he's subtle, people will think he actually beat it. He clearly does NOT want that to be the case. Now, if he'd heard the test was unbeatable before taking it and immediately chose to alter the test--that would be a disappointing way to present the test. However, this is the THIRD time he tries it. Given his motivation, I would have been highly disappointed in a subtle approach. This approach was perfect for the purposes Kirk had in mind. As for not articulating a goal beyond being a "smart-ass"--the inquiry had barely begun before it was interrupted. Then again, I feel confident Kirk would have won the argument, had he been allowed to present it. That it was interrupted was not his fault.

Since his goal was to show the test was, in his mind, a pointless exercise, I found his approach to it a perfect way to demonstrate his views. This was one of my favourite moments in the film (right down to the apple-munching).

 

[trampledamage]

As a passing phrase, calling the no-win scenario the "Kobayashi Maru" test was okay, but it makes no sense at all as an actual test.

The only way such a test makes sense is if it is a random simulation among many other simulations that the cadets do not know which is which in advance.

Therefore the ship in distress cannot always be the Kobayashi Maru - that would give it away a little!

I suppose it can have got the slang name "Kobayashi Maru" after the Kirk incident, since everyone would be talking about it.

The scenarios continually change to always ensure failure. Regardless of how much you know or how many people took the same test it will always bring about a new scenario to ensure defeat.

Yes I understand that. But if it always involves the ship Kobayashi Maru then you know going in that you cannot win and will act accordingly.

A true test of a no-win scenario is not to let you know you can't win.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Yes I understand that. But if it always involves the ship Kobayashi Maru then you know going in that you cannot win and will act accordingly.

A true test of a no-win scenario is not to let you know you can't win.

Perhaps the cadets might like to see just how far they can survive the test before death. Whoever can get further into the test is best. It's like a competition to see who can drink the most before passing out. For each person the test might be slightly different to prevent cheating.

Maybe the cadets don't know that it is un-winable. They all just believe it's difficult to win and they take the test expecting to do better than those before them. Until Spock confronted Kirk and actually said it's designed to see how you react when confronted with certain death perhaps the cadets were none the wiser.

I'm content with either of those possibilities.

 

[flemm]

Yes I understand that. But if it always involves the ship Kobayashi Maru then you know going in that you cannot win and will act accordingly.

A true test of a no-win scenario is not to let you know you can't win.

Right, what was lost in the film was how this test was supposed to function when it worked as expected: how was this supposed to test anyone's character?

To put it another way, I felt the test itself wasn't established well enough to make Kirk's success seem significant. The fact that his solution seemed pretty straight-forward didn't help. It made the test seem very easy to beat and the other cadets seem somewhat dull-witted in comparison.

It's only Star Trek fans who care about the test itself, though. As a scene for developing Kirk's character it worked fine, and that was its main function in the movie.

 

[perigee]

All right... now, just for a second...

Who said that they gave Kirk a commendation for original thinking?

Was it George Washington?

Has anyone seen this commendation?

Is it beyond the character of Kirk to say that, 30 years after the fact, as a sardonic comment on an actual dress-down?

Nobody's even considering the idea that Add-me-ral Kirk was shining Saavik on. Which is just as possible.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Kirk may be many things, but he's not a liar.

 

[perigee]

^ Kirk may be many things, but he's not a liar.

Pardon me? If you'll give me a few hours I could pile on a laundry list of times kirk stretched, twisted, and plain old snapped the truth. Just off the top of my head, did the Federation take over Bela Oxmyx's territory? Did he hand Mudd's Women real Venus drugs? Did he give Kahn the Genesis information he was dredging up off the shattered computers?

Nooo - even Spock admits he learned to lie from Kirk.

James T Kirk was a lot of things.... but he was never a boy scout.

 

[dkehler]

I too was underwhelmed with the Kobayashi Maru sequence in the film. And I'm tired of the argument that "if Kirk was a little bit more subtle, it means that he was really trying to cheat!" OBVIOUSLY, simply beating the scenario is proof positive that he must have cheated. Spock would have easily find out after the fact and Kirk knew that. There was no need for him to be complete jackass about it.

 

[Ovation]

I too was underwhelmed with the Kobayashi Maru sequence in the film. And I'm tired of the argument that "if Kirk was a little bit more subtle, it means that he was really trying to cheat!" OBVIOUSLY, simply beating the scenario is proof positive that he must have cheated. Spock would have easily find out after the fact and Kirk knew that. There was no need for him to be complete jackass about it.

Except he didn't want to just prove it to Spock (he didn't even know Spock was the "author" of the test), he wanted to prove it to everyone watching--as it was happening.

 

[dkehler]

I too was underwhelmed with the Kobayashi Maru sequence in the film. And I'm tired of the argument that "if Kirk was a little bit more subtle, it means that he was really trying to cheat!" OBVIOUSLY, simply beating the scenario is proof positive that he must have cheated. Spock would have easily find out after the fact and Kirk knew that. There was no need for him to be complete jackass about it.

Except he didn't want to just prove it to Spock (he didn't even know Spock was the "author" of the test), he wanted to prove it to everyone watching--as it was happening.

And beating the unwinnable scenario is more than enough proof to do so.

 

[Ovation]

I too was underwhelmed with the Kobayashi Maru sequence in the film. And I'm tired of the argument that "if Kirk was a little bit more subtle, it means that he was really trying to cheat!" OBVIOUSLY, simply beating the scenario is proof positive that he must have cheated. Spock would have easily find out after the fact and Kirk knew that. There was no need for him to be complete jackass about it.

Except he didn't want to just prove it to Spock (he didn't even know Spock was the "author" of the test), he wanted to prove it to everyone watching--as it was happening.

And beating the unwinnable scenario is more than enough proof to do so.

Perhaps to you. But it was clear that Kirk was of a personality to want to ensure that his contempt for the test was clear. And it was.

You're free to dislike the portrayal. But I don't think "subtle" would have been consistent with his character in the new timeline.

 

[Jeri]

From the assembly scene, it's clear that Jim has a higher purpose to his actions than showing off.

He wants to expose the test as a cheat, and he has strong personal reasons for doing so: he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario.

It's not just for fun.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

From the assembly scene, it's clear that Jim has a higher purpose to his actions than showing off.

He wants to expose the test as a cheat, and he has strong personal reasons for doing so: he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario.

It's not just for fun.

I don't know that they conveyed his "strong personal reasons". Why doesn't he believe in it? They didn't really make that very clear if you ask me.

It's all kind of silly anyway, the way they presented this test in this movie I don't know how any cadet would sense fear. I never thought the test was about fear anyway but that's another story.

 

[Jeri]

From the assembly scene, it's clear that Jim has a higher purpose to his actions than showing off.

He wants to expose the test as a cheat, and he has strong personal reasons for doing so: he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario.

It's not just for fun.

I don't know that they conveyed his "strong personal reasons". Why doesn't he believe in it? They didn't really make that very clear if you ask me.

It's all kind of silly anyway, the way they presented this test in this movie I don't know how any cadet would sense fear. I never thought the test was about fear anyway but that's another story.

Spock is the one who makes the point. Jim says he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios, and then Spock makes the connection to Jim's dad. Jim's motivation is clear.

Jim already told Pike in the bar that his dad learned his lesson. Jim not knowing his dad is a major deal to him; it's the thing he asks Nimoy's Spock about when he finally believes Spock's from a different time line.

 

[Nowhere Man]

We have to remember, Kirk never cheated, he changed the conditions of the test.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

From the assembly scene, it's clear that Jim has a higher purpose to his actions than showing off.

He wants to expose the test as a cheat, and he has strong personal reasons for doing so: he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario.

It's not just for fun.

I don't know that they conveyed his "strong personal reasons". Why doesn't he believe in it? They didn't really make that very clear if you ask me.

It's all kind of silly anyway, the way they presented this test in this movie I don't know how any cadet would sense fear. I never thought the test was about fear anyway but that's another story.

Spock is the one who makes the point. Jim says he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios, and then Spock makes the connection to Jim's dad. Jim's motivation is clear.

Jim already told Pike in the bar that his dad learned his lesson. Jim not knowing his dad is a major deal to him; it's the thing he asks Nimoy's Spock about when he finally believes Spock's from a different time line.

OK, I'll have to give you that, I guess when I saw Kirk not getting the point of the test that meant he didn't have a legit reason to be opposed to it but I can see where he didn't want to admit why he had felt that way.

 

[Jeri]

OK, I'll have to give you that, I guess when I saw Kirk not getting the point of the test that meant he didn't have a legit reason to be opposed to it but I can see where he didn't want to admit why he had felt that way.

Nicely put.

 

[pookha]

From the assembly scene, it's clear that Jim has a higher purpose to his actions than showing off.

He wants to expose the test as a cheat, and he has strong personal reasons for doing so: he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario.

It's not just for fun.

yep he was starting to adress why he felt the test itself was a cheat but the crisis on vulcan came up.

and yeah i think the fate of the kelvin played a part in this..just like the fate of some other ship in the prime time line affected how that kirk felt about the test.