The Kobayashi Maru... a test of character... how would you do it?

[CaptainHawk1]

The Kobayashi Maru is one thing that's always bugged me in Trek. For years, I tried to come up with scenarios (other than cheating) to beat the "no-win scenario." But then I really started thinking about. Kirk says there's no right answer and that it's a test of character (and some nonsense about how we face death is as equally important as how we face life). If it truly is a test of character and all things being equal and we know everything that we know about the scenario ahead of time I have the correct solution: Do nothing.

That's right, I said it. Do absolutely nothing. The facts are this: a civilian freighter has had an accident has wound up in the Neutral Zone. The Klingons are obviously aware of this and if the Enterprise enters the Neutral Zone not only are they violating the Organian Peace Treaty they are also fring the first shot in an interstellar war. Plus, they know that they are the only ship in the area and they are massively outgunned. So why start an intergalactic war and have your ship destroyed and your entire crew of 400 killed to help a doomed freighter who will also be killed? This seems foolish to me. It's not the Enterprise fault that this ship wound up on the wrong side of the border and they have absolutely no business going in to retrieve it.

The fact is that the Klingons will most likely not harm the civilian freighter because there's no honor in it as long as the Enterprise doesn't enter the Neutral Zone. Oh, they'd probably seize the vessel and make a big show of it, but the crew would most likely eventually be released. Again, there's no honor in killing civilians.

Bottom line: worst case scenario if they don't go in, 185 people die. Best case if they do go in, 400 Enterprise Crew die plus 185 civilians. Worst case if they go in: add countless billions to the 585 just mentioned.

So how would you beat the no-win scenario (without cheating)?

-Shawn

 

[HobartFloyt]

I think the problem you're going to have here is that it's known that the scenario is a trap, where part of the idea of the test in the movie was that it was a surprise and the person undergoing the test could only take into account the information that would've been available to the commander on scene.

Personally, I'd go to the rescue because that's how I am and I can't know it's not legitimate until I get there. I also don't know that the Klingons are aware of the problem, and even if they were, whether they were going to do anything about it or not.

Once there, well, I'm not surrendering so we know the outcome of that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The fact is that the Klingons will most likely not harm the civilian freighter because there's no honor in it as long as the Enterprise doesn't enter the Neutral Zone. Oh, they'd probably seize the vessel and make a big show of it, but the crew would most likely eventually be released. Again, there's no honor in killing civilians.

Tell that to Admiral Kirk, after David Marcus was killed.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I think the problem you're going to have here is that it's known that the scenario is a trap, where part of the idea of the test in the movie was that it was a surprise and the person undergoing the test could only take into account the information that would've been available to the commander on scene.

Personally, I'd go to the rescue because that's how I am and I can't know it's not legitimate until I get there. I also don't know that the Klingons are aware of the problem, and even if they were, whether they were going to do anything about it or not.

Once there, well, I'm not surrendering so we know the outcome of that.

I hear what you're saying but I'm going to throw two premises at you:

First, the Kobayashi Maru test has been around at least since Kirk's Academy days and from the way it's referred to and spoken about in TWOK (and TUC by McCoy) I think it's safe to assume that it hasn't changed in 30 plus years and EVERY cadet knows about it and the specifics and the Academy Instructors don't keep it secret because it can't be beaten. That being said, you know what you're getting into when you enter the simulator.

The other idea I had was to let's say you're right. Cadets don't know the scenario before they step into the room. As a Captain there are things you would know. First, you know the terms of the treaty and the consequences of entering the NZ. Second, you have to assume that Starfleet knows the Klingon Fleet strength along the NZ so you know that the Klingons saw and heard the same thing you did on their sensors and since the NZ is only one light year wide (from Federation to Klingon Border) that those three ships are going to get there pretty quick and you don't stand a chance.

My point is, even if you don't know the specifics of the scenario, you'd have the same information as any other Captain before going in.

If you want to have fun, read the short stoy in Strange New Worlds: VII that tells the backstory of Kirk's "solution." It's very good and the writer makes a lot of good points about the scenario (through Kirk's eyes).

-Shawn

 

[CaptainHawk1]

The fact is that the Klingons will most likely not harm the civilian freighter because there's no honor in it as long as the Enterprise doesn't enter the Neutral Zone. Oh, they'd probably seize the vessel and make a big show of it, but the crew would most likely eventually be released. Again, there's no honor in killing civilians.

Tell that to Admiral Kirk, after David Marcus was killed.

Good point, but Kruge had gone rogue and he says as much when he says (and I'll paraphrase), "...Even while our leaders negotiate for peace with the Federation, we will work for the preservation of the Klingon race."

I doubt (and I have nothing really to base this on besides what we know about Klingons) the three regular ships from the Klingon Defense Forces would target a heavily damaged civilian freighter.

-Shawn

 

[the Sisko]

I think I would use the Aya Nakajima (Captain from Japanese Trek manga) solution of destroying the Kobayashi Maru and using the confusion and damage caused to the Klingons to win a skirmish.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I think I would use the Aya Nakajima (Captain from Japanese Trek manga) solution of destroying the Kobayashi Maru and using the confusion and damage caused to the Klingons to win a skirmish.

Explain that in detail.

Are you saying that the Captain flies the ship into the NZ, destroys the KM and then picks a fight with the Klingons? That sounds nuts! Why not just avoid the whole thing in the first place?

-Shawn

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I think I would use the Aya Nakajima (Captain from Japanese Trek manga) solution of destroying the Kobayashi Maru and using the confusion and damage caused to the Klingons to win a skirmish.

That's the solution I was thinking about too! Love Star Trekker.

 

[SeerSGB]

Launch a couple of shuttles trailing fake transponders and warp signatures to draw off the klingons, warp in and snatch up as many people as people and hot foot it the hell out of there at the first peep of a klingon ship.

 

[HobartFloyt]

I hear what you're saying but I'm going to throw two premises at you:

First, the Kobayashi Maru test has been around at least since Kirk's Academy days and from the way it's referred to and spoken about in TWOK (and TUC by McCoy) I think it's safe to assume that it hasn't changed in 30 plus years and EVERY cadet knows about it and the specifics and the Academy Instructors don't keep it secret because it can't be beaten. That being said, you know what you're getting into when you enter the simulator.

Well, since the only on-screen evidence we have shows that the officer candidate was not aware of the KM scenario then I think we can pretty well say that it is kept secret. In fact, if it is not a secret it ruins the whole point of the exercise. Kirk was able to "win" because he knew something the other candidates didn't, and could do something about it.

The other idea I had was to let's say you're right. Cadets don't know the scenario before they step into the room. As a Captain there are things you would know. First, you know the terms of the treaty and the consequences of entering the NZ. Second, you have to assume that Starfleet knows the Klingon Fleet strength along the NZ so you know that the Klingons saw and heard the same thing you did on their sensors and since the NZ is only one light year wide (from Federation to Klingon Border) that those three ships are going to get there pretty quick and you don't stand a chance.

My point is, even if you don't know the specifics of the scenario, you'd have the same information as any other Captain before going in.

If you want to have fun, read the short stoy in Strange New Worlds: VII that tells the backstory of Kirk's "solution." It's very good and the writer makes a lot of good points about the scenario (through Kirk's eyes).

-Shawn

See, that's the point of the KM scenario. What kind of person are you? Are you a legalistic by-the-rules type, or are you the sort that will take action even if it's against the rules. This is at least as important a question as the one asked later in the scenario, which is how do you face overwhelming odds. There's no right answer, you are who you are.

IMO people get a little too hung up on trying to "beat" the scenario when that isn't the point, although I suppose that in itself would give info as to the subjects character. The simulation is shown to be unbeatable if you go to the rescue as it will throw whatever it takes at you until you are defeated. What is not shown is what happens if you don't go. It has to be something since there needs to be an answer to the other question of how you face an unwinnable situation.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I hear what you're saying but I'm going to throw two premises at you:

First, the Kobayashi Maru test has been around at least since Kirk's Academy days and from the way it's referred to and spoken about in TWOK (and TUC by McCoy) I think it's safe to assume that it hasn't changed in 30 plus years and EVERY cadet knows about it and the specifics and the Academy Instructors don't keep it secret because it can't be beaten. That being said, you know what you're getting into when you enter the simulator.

Well, since the only on-screen evidence we have shows that the officer candidate was not aware of the KM scenario then I think we can pretty well say that it is kept secret. In fact, if it is not a secret it ruins the whole point of the exercise. Kirk was able to "win" because he knew something the other candidates didn't, and could do something about it.

The other idea I had was to let's say you're right. Cadets don't know the scenario before they step into the room. As a Captain there are things you would know. First, you know the terms of the treaty and the consequences of entering the NZ. Second, you have to assume that Starfleet knows the Klingon Fleet strength along the NZ so you know that the Klingons saw and heard the same thing you did on their sensors and since the NZ is only one light year wide (from Federation to Klingon Border) that those three ships are going to get there pretty quick and you don't stand a chance.

My point is, even if you don't know the specifics of the scenario, you'd have the same information as any other Captain before going in.

If you want to have fun, read the short stoy in Strange New Worlds: VII that tells the backstory of Kirk's "solution." It's very good and the writer makes a lot of good points about the scenario (through Kirk's eyes).

-Shawn

See, that's the point of the KM scenario. What kind of person are you? Are you a legalistic by-the-rules type, or are you the sort that will take action even if it's against the rules. This is at least as important a question as the one asked later in the scenario, which is how do you face overwhelming odds. There's no right answer, you are who you are.

IMO people get a little too hung up on trying to "beat" the scenario when that isn't the point, although I suppose that in itself would give info as to the subjects character. The simulation is shown to be unbeatable if you go to the rescue as it will throw whatever it takes at you until you are defeated. What is not shown is what happens if you don't go. It has to be something since there needs to be an answer to the other question of how you face an unwinnable situation.

Yeah, I agree. The test is rigged to beat you no matter what you do. It's probably designed to thwart whatever brilliant combat strategy you come up with by throwing unexpected system breakdowns at you at the worst possible time. No way to win, unless you do it Kirk-style...

To me, the Kobayashi Maru Test comes down to one single question--"Will you rescue 'em or not?" No matter if you do or don't, it's unlikely to be a pleasant outcome, but it does probably gives Starfleet a good idea of what kind of captain a cadet will be...

 

[SeerSGB]

My old standby answer when this topic would come up at cons: Order the ship to proceed to Qo'Nos at high warp, hail the Maru and vow to avenge their deaths, and then proceed to blow the hell out of the Klingon homeworld while shouting "Remember The Kobyashi Maru!"

Let Starfleet's shrinks make something of that

 

[CaptainHawk1]

My old standby answer when this topic would come up at cons: Order the ship to proceed to Qo'Nos at high warp, hail the Maru and vow to avenge their deaths, and then proceed to blow the hell out of the Klingon homeworld while shouting "Remember The Kobyashi Maru!"

Let Starfleet's shrinks make something of that

Ooooh, that's good...

-Shawn

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Sling shot around a near by star and go back in time. I'd then prevent the Maru from straying into the NZ in the first place.

 

[Triskelion]

Well with time travel you could prevent the Maru from leaving your space. But something tells me those kinds of maneuvers aren't in the sim. Nor bribing or leveraging Klingon captains. Point is, there are so many ships that there's probably no way at all to assure one Klingon ship wouldn't attack. The other obvious problem is, that any violation of the space would start a war. If not today, maybe tomorrow.

Sitting back and doing nothing would likely result in the destruction of the Maru with all hands.

Stringing empty shuttles along and letting them act as a transporter chain has no guarantee of success, most likely the shuttles will be destroyed.

Klingons wouldn't be baited by a few empty shuttles when there's a starship at the border. Going to the Klingon homeworld would certainly result in war.

The simple matter of it is, there's no choice. Enter the NZ and start a war and be destroyed. Do nothing and watch the destruction of the Maru. It would seem to me that any ship traveling along the NZ would be made aware of their lack of Fed support should they venture in for any reason. There would be a clear policy about these eventualities, and warning buoys along trade routes too probably. The two governments could hammer out a rescue option, but either side could use that as a cover for operations. so probably there'd be no recourse.

It shouldn't have to be the Captain's choice.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Well with time travel you could prevent the Maru from leaving your space. But something tells me those kinds of maneuvers aren't in the sim. Nor bribing or leveraging Klingon captains. Point is, there are so many ships that there's probably no way at all to assure one Klingon ship wouldn't attack. The other obvious problem is, that any violation of the space would start a war. If not today, maybe tomorrow.

Sitting back and doing nothing would likely result in the destruction of the Maru with all hands.

Stringing empty shuttles along and letting them act as a transporter chain has no guarantee of success, most likely the shuttles will be destroyed.

Klingons wouldn't be baited by a few empty shuttles when there's a starship at the border. Going to the Klingon homeworld would certainly result in war.

The simple matter of it is, there's no choice. Enter the NZ and start a war and be destroyed. Do nothing and watch the destruction of the Maru. It would seem to me that any ship traveling along the NZ would be made aware of their lack of Fed support should they venture in for any reason. There would be a clear policy about these eventualities, and warning buoys along trade routes too probably. The two governments could hammer out a rescue option, but either side could use that as a cover for operations. so probably there'd be no recourse.

It shouldn't have to be the Captain's choice.

So, are you saying that you agree with me?

You make a very good point about warning buoys and the like regarding civilian vessels. I know they had an accisent but how the hell did they get flung into the NZ? They were obviously way to close to it to begin with.

-Shawn

 

[137th Gebirg]

I'd likely disengage 6 of the magnetic antimatter bottles (two for each attacking ship) and beam them in front of the Klingons, order all power to forward shields and watch the fireworks. They were all coming in on the same vector and didn't seem to want to maneuver. The likelihood of knocking them out as the magnetic restrictors died from lack of power would have been enough to cripple and/or destroy the entire battlegroup. Mop up whatever was left, find the KM survivors and di-di-mau out of the neutral zone. If it worked, I would have been likely given the nickname "Captain Blood" for that little stunt and promptly stationed on the neutral zone for my first command.

I haven't thought about that scenario too much.

Question then becomes, now that the Klingons are our furry friends in the 24th century, who do they use as bad guys in the KM Scenario? Cardassians? Dominion? Borg?

 

[Tulaberry whine]

I hear what you're saying but I'm going to throw two premises at you:

First, the Kobayashi Maru test has been around at least since Kirk's Academy days and from the way it's referred to and spoken about in TWOK (and TUC by McCoy) I think it's safe to assume that it hasn't changed in 30 plus years and EVERY cadet knows about it and the specifics and the Academy Instructors don't keep it secret because it can't be beaten. That being said, you know what you're getting into when you enter the simulator.

Well, since the only on-screen evidence we have shows that the officer candidate was not aware of the KM scenario then I think we can pretty well say that it is kept secret. In fact, if it is not a secret it ruins the whole point of the exercise. Kirk was able to "win" because he knew something the other candidates didn't, and could do something about it.

According to Spock in Wrath Kirk took the test several times before he decided to re-program it, so it isn't kept secret.

 

[SeerSGB]

Wouldn't be any need to keep it secret, the instructors probably just don't say anything about the true nature of the test; preferring to let the cadets to think that there is some mystery solution to it.

 

[jgdst]

Question then becomes, now that the Klingons are our furry friends in the 24th century, who do they use as bad guys in the KM Scenario? Cardassians? Dominion? Borg?

Tribbles. It's obvious.

I've got to say I'd never really thought about the KM until the post by CaptainHawk1. The old addage of the needs of the many... seems to apply, yet Saavik herself goes on a humanitarian impulse that costs the lives of her crew.

Simple answer: PREPARE FOR RAMMING SPEED!