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Spoilers The Klingons Make No (Strategic) Sense

So what are there strategic objectives vis-a-vis a powerful adversary like the Federation?

- resources? Like dilithium
- conquering? Seems unlikely. Took 20 years in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and in the Discovery scenario not a lot of territory moving around.
- terror / ransom like the raid on the Vulcan learning facility?
- reputations? “Keep off my grass”?
- Cold War?

Seems very unclear.
 
By TOS, we see a seemingly united Klingon Empire on the brink of waging war with the Federation (again). They are organized, dangerous, have secret police to what everyone, even the officers. They have mind shifters to get any information out of prisoners. They have no qualms about executing civilians to get something done. And they have a fleet sizable enough to cause the Federation to be very worried, if not outright panic.


And then the Organians stop the war.

After this there is a lot of jockeying for resources and planets between the two powers. The Klingons seem to have more resource poor worlds (now) and as the decades go by, incidents increase. The Organians seem to no longer be an issue, and Starfleet is preparing for the possibility of war with the Klingons again. The Genesis Device nearly sparks the war, but situations happen that mitigate the issue for a little while. Than Praxis explodes. The Klingon Empire's chief resource moon is gone, and the homeworld is threatened with extinction. The Federation, eventually, manages to use this as an olive branch and mends relations to the point where the Klingons are not on a perpetual war footing against the Federation. The homeworld survives somehow and just when the Klingons thing they might go back to traditionally fighting Starfleet, the Romulans attack outposts and planets, causing a full on alliance between the Federation and the Klingons. An alliance that is somewhat unstable, but enough to keep the Federation at relative peace for a decade or two. Enough for Starfleet to relax. Get comfortable being relatively unchallenged by a serious hostile force. Sure the Cardassians are out there making noises, but they are not the threat that was the Klingon Empire....or at least not to the point where Starfleet need to keep a military footing like it was near the end of the 23rd century.
 
I don't understand the appeal of this Axanar video.

Yeah...it (and those who made it) are responsible for killing off full length fan vids. Regardless of the content, it should be the most hated video in fandom.

I hear you that the Klingons may only want hit and runs. Or are only organized for such raids. But I wouldn’t antagonize the Federation for that.

Why? What are they going to do? Bomb your planets? Occupy your territory? Not their style. Worst thing they do is force you to negotiate and set up a demilitarized zone on your border.

The Federation is not a existential military threat.
 
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Interesting point. So they went from a Russian analog to terrorists? Its an Empire after all.
 
So that you can find out why STD is characterized by poor writing.
Generally, the videos I have watched that are negative towards DISCO I don't agree with their premise so it is difficult to understand their conclusion.
 
The problem boils down once more to poor writing, i.e. they crammed too much content in only a few episodes. Hopefully, they'll resolve this problem in future ones.
Go over the threads about each episode in this forum and various reviews (esp. from AVClub) for examples.
Honestly, that AVClub writer lost the privilege of being taken seriously by me when I read this:

I can’t appreciate what it does right because I’m routinely distracted by the weird, pointless, or outright bad choices the writers have made. We’re six episodes in, and I’m still getting annoyed at how advanced the technology is for a series that’s ostensibly set ten years before the original Trek.

:rolleyes: Yawn.

Apparently, "too much" refers to the tardigrade, spore drive, and Klingons combined in one episode. Of course, that was a knee-jerk reaction written before it became clear how all 3 stories were linked. It seems most of these types of criticisms follow a similar pattern. I'm not sure what is supposed to be gained from searching the internet for prepackaged opinions as opposed to discussing them here.
 
Generally, the videos I have watched that are negative towards DISCO I don't agree with their premise so it is difficult to understand their conclusion.

I don't look at videos but written reviews, including those shared in this forum.

What they show are not based on any unusual premise but common sense. These include characters acting inconsistently, logical problems in the story line, major story arcs left hanging or rushed, etc.
 
Honestly, that AVClub writer lost the privilege of being taken seriously by me when I read this:

I can’t appreciate what it does right because I’m routinely distracted by the weird, pointless, or outright bad choices the writers have made. We’re six episodes in, and I’m still getting annoyed at how advanced the technology is for a series that’s ostensibly set ten years before the original Trek.

:rolleyes: Yawn.

Apparently, "too much" refers to the tardigrade, spore drive, and Klingons combined in one episode. Of course, that was a knee-jerk reaction written before it became clear how all 3 stories were linked. It seems most of these types of criticisms follow a similar pattern. I'm not sure what is supposed to be gained from searching the internet for prepackaged opinions as opposed to discussing them here.
That's kind of my feeling too. It feels like there is not an honest effort to enjoy the series on its own merits and that it violates Star Trek's ethos in some way (Sarek, Klingons, spore drive) is apparently "bad writing" that can't get past.

I think the Security Chief in "Context is for Kings" is the worst part of DISCO thus far.
What they show are not based on any unusual premise but common sense. These include characters acting inconsistently, logical problems in the story line, major story arcs left hanging or rushed, etc.
Then I guess I just have uncommon sense ;)

I really don't have any other response. I enjoy it, and that's good enough for me, character inconsistencies (what few I've seen in the show), logical problems (again, would love specific examples) and major story arcs being left hanging (it's only halfway done!).
 
Space warfare is physics as much as anything else - and physics presents some horrible possibilities. The opening of the 1979 anime Mobile Suit Gundam famously featured a 20-mile long O'Neill cylinder space habitat being used as a mass driver, being dropped from a Lagrange point orbit onto Sydney, Australia. Star Trek does not have to feature the grim darkness of biological weapons, genocide, and endless materiel - but it could occasionally show, say, a Klingon world where everyone is organized into work gangs, or a fortified dock.
The logistics presented in Gundam anime are some real headscratchers, though. For one thing, the Federal Forces' headquarters is supposedly an underground hidden base that nobody really knows how to get into. Why would that be, exactly? I mean, unless their REAL headquarters got slagged early in the war and Jaburo was just their backup base... but why would you have a huge underground complex, complete with shipyards and launch pads for battle cruisers, in the first place?

Of course, Gundam is a straight up war drama and the character arcs are all set to the background of the war. Their themes are all proto-military themes, eg "What does it mean to be a soldier?" and "Are we sacrificing our humanity?" or even "Should we spare the civilians if it means failing our mission?" and so on. Discovery is more character-centric than anything else and is mostly focussed on Burnham and Lorca, neither of whom have any real reason to be part of those kinds of logistical discussions (arguably, Lorca only hears as much as he does because Discovery's spore drive makes him really important).

This is why I was so wary of them making the Klingons clannish and religious, because a feudal empire with no central organization (hopefully not what they intend), fighting a technological superpower with a standing military, is problematic.
And surely the Klingons just learned this the hard way. That's something to be considered in television too: a character's actions need not be particularly well thought out to still be plausible. As in the above Gundam example: hindsight tells us that Zeon's defeat was basically inevitable, and that there was no way their attempt to knock out the Federation military was going to work as well as they thought it would. Their perceived technological superiority (the Big Zam, the colony laser) were actually a series of technological Hail Marys once they realized how completely hosed they were. Superweaon after superweapon failed to turn the tide and they wound up getting crushed in the end.

Which is interesting, because the One Year War is pretty much just a retelling of Japan's defeat in WWII, with the Colony Drop being the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and the 8 month stalemate being the period between Pearl Harbor and Midway (and White Base being, basically, the Enterprise). The analogy is smooth enough that the war actually ends at the battle of Abao Aqu, which in Japanese is just an anagram for "Okinawa" and in the series is depicted as the first/last major stronghold before an invasion of Zeon's own space colonies. So in that sense, it's a truth-in-television: Imperial Japan bombing Pearl Harbor was ultimately a pretty stupid move, as there was no way they could have actually WON a contest against the United States under the conditions that existed at the time. The best they could have done was staved off defeat long enough that eventual American victory wouldn't matter anymore... which would have taken WAY longer than they could afford.

The Klingon War definitely isn't following a WW-II style presentation, nor a cold war based one like TOS. It's being grounded in modern expectations and is shaped by current events. Which is why I alluded to the battle with ISIS and their quixotic attempt to restore a caliphate. In this case, nobody really cares about ISIS' logistics because their weapons are dirt cheap; they're driving around in technicals, ambushing people who can't really fight back, and are as dangerous as they are only because they're sneaky and numerous. The war against ISIS has no epic battles, though; there's no Battle of the Coral Sea, no Guadalcanal, no Mariana Turkey Shoot. There's a long hard slog to take back Mosul, a confusing and complicated series of gains and losses and re-gains in neighborhoods that nobody but the locals understand, and eventually a headline that well, ISIS has officially left Mosul or something.
 
Lots of obscure little skirmishes in systems with little more than a few hundred star catalogue ID numbers to their individual credit...
 
@Crazy Eddie - I fully agree.

Note that I've never watched Gundam, the colony drop was just my example of space physics being used in war; i.e. everything becoming a potential mass weapon, and any space state being capable of constructing large scale habitats by nature of their power generation capacity as a civilization.

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My previous post was a lament that we do not see speculative space physics and military logistics more, when (stepping back from the show's themes), we could see that, purely for the love of future engineering and speculative fiction, rather than any greater dramatic reason. Engineering porn.

But, on another topic, now that you have brought it up:

It was not a serious contention that the Klingons are anything but a flash-in-the pan, or an argument that they are necessarily in a total war, as we have a lot of other threads discussing that - the nature of their history, and the present state of their culture. The show itself presents no clear picture yet - the Federation at least seems to consider this an existential threat. I have argued in the past that the Klingon Empire might need to be better organized than feudalism and dogma simply to function as a space empire with warp field specialists and quantum physicists at all, when running up against foes with a greater organizational capacity on different planets - but I wasn't making that case here - my previous post, for just a moment, presupposed that Klingons are in possession of an effective modern military infrastructure - while I know that they may not be, hence the long preamble:

"wars are not always conducted in a way that resembles the total wars of the 20th century"

"not every sci-fi explores the same themes"

"big wars aren't always like this, it could be that neither side has that kind of infrastructure or the desire to escalate it that far"

But now that we have opened the topic, let's discuss the wider picture of the war and it's impact on Star Trek's coherent history. We all know the current Klingon analogy is Islamism, not communism or fascism any more. But this wasn't always the case, as we know:

This view of the Klingons had their sociology theoretically aimed at "the collective good" rather than "individuality," .... The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea. - indirect John Colicos

"And I think he was basing a lot of it on the kind of attitude of the Japanese in World War II, the Nazis in World War II, because Gene was a World War II veteran marine and he really took all this to heart. And as a result, he modeled them on the worst villains he knew." - D C Fontana

The Klingon Empire becomes an analogy for regimented anti-individualistic totalitarian societies within 10 years of in-universe time. The writers can either (1) depict it happening now, or they can (2) depict it happening between now and then, or they can (3) ignore that previous thematic intent, or they can (4) just not explain the change at all.

Possibility 1 is unlikely.

Possibility 2 is becomes unlikely the longer this show extends toward TOS.

Possibility 3 I do not like, as it does two things - a). it renders a previous work less coherent in context when there is nothing wrong with TOS's Cold War themes being fully respected, and b). it ossifies the Klingon Empire into a feudal structure across all depictions from ENT to VOY, whilst (in terms of trusteeship of Star Trek) making it harder for future writers to ever take them in a different direction to Ronald D Moore's memo ever again, including the timeless archetype of totalitarians/fascists/militarists that made for such great villains in TOS era.

Possibility 4 is most likely, but a missed opportunity for some great drama.

Although, to some extent, both options 3 and 4 make TOS's Klingons problematic, I only want to address one of those four possibilities really, the one that I like the least. The one I fear they might choose. Let's imagine they choose to go with option 3, and just suggest Klingons have always been Ronald D Moore Klingons:

We have to remember Klingons are also Star Trek's Daleks, not just Star Trek's Jihadists - but claiming that they were always clannish anti-intellectual fanatics behind the scenes, even during TOS, dilutes depiction of them as a 'Cold War thriller' threat, with all the capacities for destruction of a post-enlightenment state - that sneaking past their border is equivalent to crossing that Iron Curtain, or that Qo'noS is as hostile a location as Pyongyang, or one of the old closed cities (i.e. Into Darkness) - they make it harder for the Klingons to be written as Star Trek's totalitarians again, or redefined as any future social adversary we haven't yet imagined, if they are depicted as less than a rival Soviet superpower, and more of a society without the scientific base of one - an Iraq, using up an antique fleet it can't replace - or an ISIS, only capable of unconventional war.

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Sure, the writers have the power to throw out the creative intention of TOS, if they wish, and retcon Ronald D Moore's clannish divided Klingons as the way Klingon society always was - pretend Kor was just some feudal lord all along, and his troops were levies. But how much more interesting if Klingon society was not a monolithic family-obsessed religion-obsessed aristocracy for 250 years from ENT to VOY, but went through changes as vast as a Cultural Revolution, where all this mystical obsession with Kahless was thrown out by the Red Guard, and planners plowed funding into infrastructure? This is science fiction, so we can have our cake and eat it too - we can have extremist analogy Klingons now - and Soviet analogy ones later too - throw in explorations of lots of different historical events from history like revolutions as J Michael Straczynski did with Babylon 5.

If they are not going to depict the Klingons as a capable Great Power now, then what worries me is that they may leave no room for the Klingons to change into one before TOS - they are leaving it perilously close to TOS for them to suddenly be a militarist rival to the Federation. Just like a disciplined force of Romans 9 times out of 10 would win against a force of disorganized tribes, by out-preparing them, and out engineering them (building a double wall around Alesia, or a ramp up the walls of Masada), I have doubts about whether a state that was less organized could run an empire against planets with centralized scientific bodies, or maintain any kind of parity with the Federation.

That's what bugs me - but if they end up being permanently feudal, I guess we will learn to live with it.

Before the Romulan Wars, which had been suggested as being a kind of WW2 of the Alpha Quadrant. DS9 alluded to the last great attack on Earth happening around then, suggested that if the Federation hadn't arisen, there would be Romulan outposts on Alpha Centauri. But then ENT happened, and had Earth Starfleet seemingly hardly operate any ships, and that I know, bugged a lot of people at the time, as it limited a war everybody imagined was horrible, into possibly something more limited. This despite the show choosing a setting literally a few years before said war. I see this as being a similar moment. DSC could become a considered establishment of why the Khitomer Accords sounded like the end of the Soviet Union in TUC, and have some faith in audiences to understand more than just present history - or it could again treat each show as a self-contained thematic universe and fail to build interesting links of history.

Jezop0C.jpg


It presents a unique opportunity, as what could be more interesting than showing a society in change from this to that. The Klingon Empire is heavily implied to be a totalitarian superpower - Admirals being worried about Klingon influence (TOS: "Amok Time") - Klingon agents supplying weapons to primitive planets (TOS: "A Private Little War") - Qo'noS being the most inscrutable planet in the galaxy for Federation citizens ("Into Darkness") - Kang's wife Mara complaining about how Starfleet would steal their technological secrets (TOS: "Day of the Dove") - Kor being remotely monitored despite being a commander, and leading a highly regimented invasion force (TOS: "Errand of Mercy") - crews competing over the development of planets (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles") - Kruge seeing the Genesis device as something that would break the parity of force ("The Search for Spock") - peace negotiations ending 70 years of unremitting hostility after an ecological disaster ("The Undiscovered Country") - everything speaks Cold War.

From feudalism and clans to that? Are they gonna depict a Klingon Revolution? I wish they would.
 
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The incredibly low body count means that the Klingon are avoiding star bases and planets.

Sure maybe they accidentally strangle a planet to death by cutting off it's supply lines, but these children want to win ship vs ship spacebattles to prove their keen abilities and source a new opera.

Governing a conquered people is hard.

Almost as hard as conquering a people.

Failing an immediate surrender, taking a planet requires concentrated orbital bombardment destroying infrastructure and population centres, putting 8 times as many soldiers on the ground as the possible opposition, followed by tens times ten that in terms of social workers, aid workers and engineers for the next century to rebuild everything you just blew up or poisoned in an afternoon.

Extermination is so much easier than pacification.

Actually...

What the Klingons are most probably doing is sacking Federation worlds.

No flag is planted

Take everything not nailed down, and book.
 
From feudalism and clans to that? Are they gonna depict a Klingon Revolution? I wish they would.

The Albino leads the Revolution. The Empire remains strong until Praxis. Peace happens, and the Albino falls. Kor and his generation either feel betrayed, or do something to anger the Albino causing the events that will bring Dax into the Klingong blood feud.
 
Possibility 3 I do not like, as it does two things - a). it renders a previous work less coherent in context when there is nothing wrong with TOS's Cold War themes being fully respected
Unfortunately, the train's already left the station on that one. The collectivist/communist analogy for the Klingons was never really fully developed in TOS, and by the time they had a chance to explore it deeper, they had already decided to go a completely different direction with it. There is NO hint at this in the TOS films, nor is their any indication that this existed in their past by the time TNG comes around. So whatever the intent in TOS, subsequent works have ALREADY rendered it incoherent in context, and Enterprise's depiction -- with the Klingons being more or less the same as in the TNG era -- nailed that coffin shut.

Possibility 4 is most likely, but a missed opportunity for some great drama.
It's a missed opportunity for some epic and sweeping world building on a grand scale, but that is NOT the same thing as "great drama." Star Trek is at its best when its centered on characters and their individual struggles with the world around them and their inner demons. The actual political/social development of their respective civilizations is just background for all of that, and need not be brought into the foreground as a thing unto itself. We will remember and relate to the characters far better than we will relate to anything that's happening in their society around them.

We have to remember Klingons are also Star Trek's Daleks, not just Star Trek's Jihadists - but claiming that they were always clannish anti-intellectual fanatics behind the scenes, even during TOS, dilutes depiction of them as a 'Cold War thriller' threat, with all the capacities for destruction of a post-enlightenment state - that sneaking past their border is equivalent to crossing that Iron Curtain, or that Qo'noS is as hostile a location as Pyongyang, or one of the old closed cities (i.e. Into Darkness) - they make it harder for the Klingons to be written as Star Trek's totalitarians again, or redefined as any future social adversary we haven't yet imagined, if they are depicted as less than a rival Soviet superpower, and more of a society without the scientific base of one - an Iraq, using up an antique fleet it can't replace - or an ISIS, only capable of unconventional war.
To which I again repeat: it's WAY too late for that. Everything the Klingons MIGHT have been in the TOS depiction has already been retconned out by the spinfoff series and the movies. Going back to the Space Fascist themes would be consistent with TOS and literally nothing else that's happened since 1964. Either in Star Trek or in the real world; the Soviet Bloc isn't really a threat anymore, and hindsight tells us it was never really the Big Bad we thought it was; North Korea isn't really a threat either, just an annoying failed state run by a militaristic loony tune. Depicting the Klingons as Space North Korea would just make it that much harder to take them seriously; depicting them as the Space Soviets would, on the other hand, raise all kinds of uncomfortable questions about how much of the Cold War was actually based on imperialist bullshit from both sides of the curtain.

Most importantly, the themes originally assigned to the Klingons were later reinvented and given to the Cardassians, where they WERE finally fully developed. The Cardassian Union is everything the TOS Klingons might have been given 5 more seasons to develop them. Doing the space fascist thing with the Klingons would, at this point, come off as insincere and un-original, especially since the Cardassians developed those themes INCREDIBLY effectively in TNG and DS9.

Klingons as a proxy for ISIS/Islamism is a new direction in a way we haven't actually seen before, and in the context of the RDM interpretation it actually makes a bit of sense. Discovery already went out of its way to establish that the Klingon Empire as it exists today is just a shell of a once-glorious galactic state that used to have everything going for it, from art and science to technology and philosophy. The parallel there is clear, and it has potential to resonate with people now because the Klingons are going through their own internal struggle to figure out who they really are and what they're going to do to build their own futures. T'Kuvma is the unifier only because he offers simple solutions to a complex problem ("Kill the enemy! Remain Klingon!") but it turns out the universe isn't nearly that simple, and perhaps neither are the Klingons.

Sure, the writers have the power to throw out the creative intention of TOS, if they wish, and retcon Ronald D Moore's clannish divided Klingons as the way Klingon society always was
They don't really have a choice. If they go back to TOS' intent, they'll have to retcon everything else that came AFTER it. Either way they're going to have to strike a shitload of precedent from canon, and it's just easier to do that with TOS since it the oldest, the least relevant and the most poorly developed thematically.

If they are not going to depict the Klingons as a capable Great Power now, then what worries me is that they may leave no room for the Klingons to change into one before TOS
That's the kicker though: exploring that theme for the Klingons has implications for the current conflict with the Islamic world. T'Kuvma's caliphate is obviously doomed to failure at this point, but what if the ANSWER to the fuedal warlord/clannish mentality turns out to be a strong central government and the abolition of the noble houses as a power bloc? What if this also coincides with a new fleetwide modernization program that aims to build new starships, new weapons, new uniforms, so that all soildiers of the Empire are now standardized rather than crafting their own ships in private shipyards? Then we have another analogy to play with: the Meiji Restoration in Japan, which turned what was a a loose confederation of fuedal warlords into a world-class military power ruled by the Emperor.

That would be enough to reconcile the RDM Klingons with the TOS version. They still have clans and noble houses, but now for the first time they have an actual Emperor and the old Klingon cultural norms have been stripped of their legal power and reduced to traditional/symbolic practices.

DSC could become a considered establishment of why the Khitomer Accords sounded like the end of the Soviet Union in TUC, and have some faith in audiences to understand more than just present history - or it could again treat each show as a self-contained thematic universe and fail to build interesting links of history.
Star Trek is not and has never been in the business of "building interesting links of history." Even the "end of the Soviet Union" in TUC was a complete ass-pull by Nicholas Meyer, as no other series in trek history even HINTED at something like this being the case. In fact, TUC actually contradicts TNG in this regard, which strongly implies that it was the Enterprise-C, more than anything else, that finally got the Empire and the Federation to come to terms.

From feudalism and clans to that? Are they gonna depict a Klingon Revolution? I wish they would.
They definitely will. That's basically the entire thrust of Voq's character arc, so that when he comes back around (whatever that actually looks like) he will probably wind up leading the Klingon revolution and leading their society into its new evolved form that is both stable enough that the Federation can't roll them over and reasonable enough that the Federation doesn't really have to.
 
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