The Klingon Battlecruiser

[yotsuya]

It should correctly be called 1968 Poe, not 1968 Jefferies. Poe was crucial to the AMT effort to build the kit and secure the models for the series. The first model was used for all the box art and a very recent reissue of the kit was redetailed to match it. The Poe model was in Roddenberry's hands until the series wrapped when he gave it to Poe. He held it for many years before it went though a few auctions until Paul Allen bought it. He also owns the K'T'inga model.

It is called either Poe or Allen model in most references to it I've seen. It was the one used for the AMT kit.

Also Greg Jein worked for Magicam. He helped make the molds of the TV D7 intended for the Pyro version. I understand he kept all the molds. His D-7 is not roughly TV scale, it is a direct copy of the the TV model so it is exactly TV scale.

Also, various of the surviving Pyro models were used for FX shots as well as AMT kits were used. As far as I know, Jein's model was the only one with lights.

 

[yotsuya]

Basically what I've found out about the mutation of the project from Phase II to TMP is that they kept the original designs of the ships and slowly changed certain details. The Enterprise was immediately scaled up and the unfinished model was left unfinished. But the design of the 100 inch model, except for the pylons and nacelles, was copied over with very few changes. I'm sure the design of the Klingon ship was similarly copied. The original intent was to use the original design, but the 29 inch model was not up to TV specs. So the intent to upscale it dates back to when it was Phase ii. I can't find more on the specifics of where this was occurring in the changeover to TMP. And ultimately it really doesn't matter. The photos make it clear they started a larger model and that model, with many changes, was the final model used in the film.

Taylor has always said he completely redesigned the Enterprise, but a direct comparison of the final product to Jefferies drawings shows that the only things they immediately changed were the photo torpedo area, the 3 main deflector satellite detailing, the hanger, and the pylons/nacelles (which evidently Taylor redesigned himself and took some time on making them the last part of the model to be finished). When the first markings were applied, other than those few areas, the ship looked like Jefferies design. Then Andrew Probert came on board and made more changes (they stripped off all the markings and redid them as well as changing the bridge and support decks, lower sensor dome, 3 deflector satellite details). So the TMP Enterprise should be credited to Jefferies, Taylor, and Probert.

 

[Maurice]

The reason I called it the 1968Jefferies because that's who I believe held onto it to differentiate it from the one that was filmed. Poe would be confusing because it could apply to both models.

As to Greg Jein, lest anyone take "worked for Magicam" too literally, he subcontracted for Magicam, he never worked there as an employee. I can't speak to the assertion that his DS9 model was from the same castings as made from the Smithsonian loan. It sounds logical, but I'm all about reputable citations, so if you have one I'd love to see it.

Speaking of Jein I spoke at length with him the year before "Tribble-ations" and it never occurred to me to pick his brains about his pre-EEG work on Trek, though he told me two particular things that stick in my memory:

1. On TMP they built so much stuff for Spock's spacewalk that they had nowhere to put it when the production ended as a lot of it had no possible re-use. They'd literally give stuff to visitors to the shop. "Here, take a planet!" I believe was the quote.
2. Around that time he'd managed to get his hands back on one of the smaller "flying phallus" rocketships he'd built for Flesh Gordon and he joked that the next time they did a spaceship graveyard on a Star Trek show he'd sneak it in. I said "As the U.S.S. John Thomas?" which got a big laugh.

As to Richard Taylor I suspect he just misremembers some things he did decades ago, as I've otherwise found him very candid in the probably 6 hours I've spent talking to him on the phone and over Zoom. We're going to put out a Fact Trek video interview with him from this material at some point after I do my follow-up call with him.

As to Andy Probert, I talk to him all the time.

 

[yotsuya]

Poe owned that model for about 30 years. I hardly call that confusing. It is generally called the Poe model as he is the one who had it form 1969 to 1998. It is now owned by Allen. So calling it the Poe or Allen model is most appropriate. Jefferies did the design so they are all Jefferies. Poe was only ever in possession of the one. The other was clearly the shooting model from TOS. Hand delivered to NASM in 1971 (before the Enterprise had arrived).

And according to Paul Olsen, there was a real problem in the TMP production of who should be credited with what. He has tried to set the record straight on what he worked on himself (the Enterprise and the major painting of the aztecing and who came up with the pattern - he did the painting but they had already designed the aztec pattern). He had nothing to do with the Klingon ship model so he wouldn't be any help there. There just seems to be a lack of accurate credit given. I have never heard Jefferies cited as the designer from whom they lifted the major design changes. Taylor always takes credit for the entire redesign, even though all his design changes were all based in what Jefferies had previously done. And Dykstra likes to take credit for the Enterprise paint scheme when it was already completed before he came on. Under him they only tweaked a few minor details. So I'm dubious without a third party verifying it who did what on TMP.

Memory Alpha quotes Doug Drexler that the DS9 D-7 was taken from the Pyro molds and uprezzed (likely meaning the model was further detailed to 1990's standards). Gary Kerr said much the same thing, except he indicated that it was a copy of a pyro model, not from the original pyro molds. Either way it is the same scale as the two original 1968 D-7 models.

 

[yotsuya]

Since there is some question about the size of the DS9 D-7, and since I was able to find a better copy of this photo of Matt Jefferies, I thought these 3 pictures might be helpful. So Matt and Gary are holding the original 1968TV D-7 and Doug is holding the DS9 D-7 (before it was put up for auction).

As you can see, the scale matches. It would, of course, be helpful if the same person was holding both models or if both models were side by side, but this shows that the DS9 model was to the same scale. Reports form both Gary and Doug indicated it was made from the molds for the original so in size and details it should be an exact copy.

I was able to enhance this picture of Matt holding the D-7 so some of the details come out better. This paint scheme isn't seen in any other photo. The oldest one from the Smithsonian shows the top of the head painted dark to match the main hull. I've found more than one reference to the original TV model being repainted, either before Magicam got it or by Magicam. I think the original intention was to reuse the model, but it was deemed unsuitable even for 70's TV. Right now we don't have any color photos (except on the model box which is not very clear) of the model in its original condition. I believe the Smithsonian has some, but they are closed currently and no one can access the archives. So currently we have to guess from these few B&W photos we do have. But monotone gray is definitely not right. That is likely how it was delivered, but not how it was finished for filming. We don't even know when this photo with Matt was taken, though it was definitely before the model was in its final form and delivered to the Smithsonian because you can seen differences.

 

[Maurice]

Poe owned that model for about 30 years. I hardly call that confusing.

You had not included that data point as far as I saw. I was either unaware or had forgotten that Mr. Poe had kept the other Klingon ship. So thanks for clarifying that.

Memory Alpha quotes Doug Drexler that the DS9 D-7 was taken from the Pyro molds and uprezzed (likely meaning the model was further detailed to 1990's standards).

Thanks for that source. However, Memory Alpha isn't always accurate to its sources. In fact, in this instance Memory Alpha slightly misquotes Doug Drexler from the source they cite (link), who mentions "Phase II" not at all:

Greg had a mold of the original, which had been on loan from the Smithsonian during the making of ST: TMP. The “Trials” ship was from that mold and uprezzed.

I will quibble with Doug over his use of the term "uprezsed": that implies scaling it bigger. What he means is increased LOD (Level Of Detail).

And Dykstra likes to take credit for the Enterprise paint scheme when it was already completed before he came on.

Why would Dykstra take credit for the Enterprise paint job when his facility never even filmed it (except, possibly the tiny one seen flying over V'ger)? The hero Enterprise was all filmed at Trumbull's EEG and not Dykstra's plant. Perhaps you mean Trumbull?

And according to Paul Olsen, there was a real problem in the TMP production of who should be credited with what. He has tried to set the record straight on what he worked on himself (the Enterprise and the major painting of the aztecing and who came up with the pattern - he did the painting but they had already designed the aztec pattern).

Andy Probert directly replied to some of Paul's accusations at one point and Paul deleted his comments, so make of that what you will. I don't sense Paul is necessarily arguing in good faith.

 

[ChallengerHK]

More for my curiosity than anything else...

This is basically it:

• Magicam built a large 4' miniature for the movie (which started verey close to the TV models, but went thrrough with many revisions specified by Taylor and Probert and later Apogee): what everyone calls the K'tinga.

Is there any information about the history of this model? The reason i ask is that I saw a large Klingon ship model at a convention near Washington DC in the late 70s or early 80s, and I talked with the guy who got it there. He claimed that it was a filming model. Of course, he also claimed that he had strapped it to his back and brought it there on a motorcycle :-)

 

[yotsuya]

You had not included that data point as far as I saw. I was either unaware or had forgotten that Mr. Poe had kept the other Klingon ship. So thanks for clarifying that.


Thanks for that source. However, Memory Alpha isn't always accurate to its sources. In fact, in this instance Memory Alpha slightly misquotes Doug Drexler from the source they cite (link), who mentions "Phase II" not at all:

​

I will quibble with Doug over his use of the term "uprezsed": that implies scaling it bigger. What he means is increased LOD (Level Of Detail).

Uprezed clearly indicates an increase in the level of detail, not size. That would be upscaled.

Why would Dykstra take credit for the Enterprise paint job when his facility never even filmed it (except, possibly the tiny one seen flying over V'ger)? The hero Enterprise was all filmed at Trumbull's EEG and not Dykstra's plant. Perhaps you mean Trumbull?

Andy Probert directly replied to some of Paul's accusations at one point and Paul deleted his comments, so make of that what you will. I don't sense Paul is necessarily arguing in good faith.

I was trying to remember what order and who worked on what. My apologies for any mistaken identity, but FX person in charge of the Enterprise final design changes (not Probert) has claimed that they are responsible for the detailed paint job and designing the aztec pattern. That is not correct and that is something that Paul Olsen was directly involved in. Taylor and someone else came up with the idea and started the painting before Paul was hired. He came on and took that tiny piece that they had done and continued that over nearly all of the rest of the model. He was in charge of using the 4 pearlescent lacquers. Another artist did the hardback, some of the areas around the deflector, and a few other areas. At one point after filming had been started but before the big flyaround shot, the model was water damaged and the bridge was replaced and repainted and I don't believe Paul did that repaint. And when the model was at auction he went to see it and found at least one patch that had been left untouched from when he painted it. And through research I have found other areas where credit was taken that doesn't really belong to the the people who took it. Most of the surface details were done by the modelers. Probert provided the changed design for the bridge (long before the water damage) and the lower sensor dome lighted ring. Taylor designed the warp nacelles and pylons, taking Jefferies basic shapes and refining them to the extent he should get design credit because they look so much better. But my research shows a history of people taking credit for things on the TMP Enterprise that they didn't actually do. What made it to the screen was still 60% Jefferies design with 30% Taylor and 10% Probert. Probert's contributions are very obvious, but overall very small. I have not relied on Paul's recollections entirely (except his comments on the painting timing), but on a variety of reliable sources.

 

[yotsuya]

More for my curiosity than anything else...
Is there any information about the history of this model? The reason i ask is that I saw a large Klingon ship model at a convention near Washington DC in the late 70s or early 80s, and I talked with the guy who got it there. He claimed that it was a filming model. Of course, he also claimed that he had strapped it to his back and brought it there on a motorcycle :-)

As far as I know the model was in California in a crate between TMP and TUC. I have not heard of it being loaned out and it should never have been carried on the back of a motorcycle. However, the original filming model was carried on a plane wrapped in a garbage bag (the head was sticking out) from CA to DC. The only model in the wild was Poe's model. Considering its good condition, I doubt it was carried around like that at any point in time. And it is only 29 inches.

 

[ChallengerHK]

As far as I know the model was in California in a crate between TMP and TUC. I have not heard of it being loaned out and it should never have been carried on the back of a motorcycle. However, the original filming model was carried on a plane wrapped in a garbage bag (the head was sticking out) from CA to DC. The only model in the wild was Poe's model. Considering its good condition, I doubt it was carried around like that at any point in time. And it is only 29 inches.

The mind plays tricks after 40+ years, so I could be off on some things. I'm certain that the model was larger than 29 inches. I remember thinking at the time that it was the TOS filming model. The guy I spoke with did say that it was a filming model, but he never claimed that it was the TOS model. He might have been referring to a fan film. The part about the motorcycle I'm clear on, though. He said that the wind kept using the rear hull as a sail and that he'd almost been knocked over a few times. (None of that means it really happened, of course. He could have been spinning tales to an impressionable teenager.)

When you say the original was carried from CA to DC, do you mean when it was delivered to the Smithsonian?

 

[yotsuya]

The mind plays tricks after 40+ years, so I could be off on some things. I'm certain that the model was larger than 29 inches. I remember thinking at the time that it was the TOS filming model. The guy I spoke with did say that it was a filming model, but he never claimed that it was the TOS model. He might have been referring to a fan film. The part about the motorcycle I'm clear on, though. He said that the wind kept using the rear hull as a sail and that he'd almost been knocked over a few times. (None of that means it really happened, of course. He could have been spinning tales to an impressionable teenager.)

When you say the original was carried from CA to DC, do you mean when it was delivered to the Smithsonian?

According to what D.C. Fontana related.

 

[Maurice]

Uprezed clearly indicates an increase in the level of detail, not size. That would be upscaled.

I still quibble with Doug's employing it. :P

 

[Maurice]

More for my curiosity than anything else...
Is there any information about the history of this model? The reason i ask is that I saw a large Klingon ship model at a convention near Washington DC in the late 70s or early 80s, and I talked with the guy who got it there. He claimed that it was a filming model. Of course, he also claimed that he had strapped it to his back and brought it there on a motorcycle :-)

There was a large (fan made) Klingon model displayed at the Federation Trading Post store in the 70s. Maybe it was that.

 

[yotsuya]

There was a large (fan made) Klingon model displayed at the Federation Trading Post store in the 70s. Maybe it was that.

I think that one was a bit big. According to this it was 6 foot long.
https://trekmovie.com/2017/02/23/re...n-trading-post-the-1970s-nyc-star-trek-mecca/

And I ordered a few things from them over the years.

 

[BK613]

I think that one was a bit big. According to this it was 6 foot long.
https://trekmovie.com/2017/02/23/re...n-trading-post-the-1970s-nyc-star-trek-mecca/

And I ordered a few things from them over the years.

I wonder if Nimoy did an English accent for the Holmes play and what it might have sounded like.

 

[ChallengerHK]

There was a large (fan made) Klingon model displayed at the Federation Trading Post store in the 70s. Maybe it was that.

I think I recall the guy saying that he came via the Jersey Turnpike, so it could be. At 6 feet, I hope the boom was detachable.

 

[yotsuya]

I think I recall the guy saying that he came via the Jersey Turnpike, so it could be. At 6 feet, I hope the boom was detachable.

Was it this guy?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Edward_Poe

If so it was the 2nd model. And just learned that Poe was his real name, but Whitfield was his pen name - as in the writer of The Making of Star Trek became the owner of the 2nd AMT model. That is the fun of posting, always learning.

 

[Maurice]

Just for the record, I asked Andy Probert about the K'tinga model and he replied, "Yes, it was under construction, at MagicCam, when I came into the production. Stupidly, I don’t seem to have that date."

 

[yotsuya]

Just for the record, I asked Andy Probert about the K'tinga model and he replied, "Yes, it was under construction, at MagicCam, when I came into the production. Stupidly, I don’t seem to have that date."

That really doesn't answer the question of it if started as Phase II or TMP. Though as I read some accounts, I think it might be simultaneous. It sounds like they decided the TOS scale wouldn't work for the hero TV Phase II model about the same time that it became a movie. So it might have been discussed for Phase II but I think by the time they were working on it they were in the TMP production. I did find another photo.

Lots of interest. For one it is dated (a Polaroid). Second we can see the mostly TOS design with the aft details that they changed that stayed the same to the final TMP configuration. And on the wall in the background is the future TNG logo. The Klingon model looks finished. It, like the Enterprise, were finished with tests footage taken and then back for more details. The Klingon ship received new engines (how much of the engine we'd have to ask, but it looks like the entire nacelles - depends on construction and what was easiest) and lots of new surface details and a much darker paint job. I also see the bar on the upper grilles that was in Jefferies drawings that was never on any of the TOS models.

You should show this to Andy and ask what he remembers.

 

[Maurice]

It wasn't intended to "answer the question". It was merely a data point to establish that the model existed when he started.

FWIW, Taylor told me that the reasons they built new models—besides the issues of size—was because the TV models were not constructed with motion control in mind. The ships—and notably the Enterprise—needed to have a strong internal frame with multiple mounting points so that you could cantilever a model out on a model mover arm and not have it sag or wiggle if filmed on its side or what have you. The Loos-built TV Enterprise miniature wasn't made for this.