I wish I could do that for all the models. That was is particularly exposed and is probably most magnificent of them all.
The Klingon Battlecruiser
- Thread starter yotsuya
- Start date
So, there are only 3 photos of the main shooting model that I could find that pedate it being loaned to Magicam whatever they did to it.
Held by Matt Jefferies himself.
In this photo you can see the multi tone finish. The markings make it clear this is the first model (The 2nd model has an extra character). The main body is darker, but the top of the head is not (unusual). You cannot directly see the lower color vs. the neck/head color, but both are lighter than the upper body.
This photo from the AMT box art.
You can see from the side of the engines that this is the main model. It has the two bars on each side of the engine and has the right markings. Here you can clearly see the color of the markings. The white and yellow are distinct colors, though the two lower arms of the logo (or left arms since this was before it got rotated) are dark and hard to distinguish. You can also see some of the color differences. The pylon is darker than the engine. The lighting is extreme and obscures some details, but this is a color photo of the model.
This photo is from after the series while it was at the Smithsonian. I think there is another one in color form the front. If anyone has that from a pre 1978 source, please share. But again you can see that this is the main model due to the markings and the engines. The engines are lighter than the upper body. You can see in this photo that the grille on the pylons is not silver but the upper hull color. The head is lighter than the engines, but whether this is from it being a different color or the lighting who can say. The colors on the Klingon emblem make it clear that the long point is red and nearer small point is green, but otherwise all you can see from this is overall tone differences.
This screen capture from the original TOS also shows lighter engines, head and neck, darker upper body with painted grilles. It has been processed enough that you cannot make out the individual colors.
This screen cap doesn't really reveal anything except the marking on the bottom, but it is a cool shot. Not sure if everything in this shot is the same color or if the color difference is just obscured.
We can verify the time period in a number of ways. This is 1701 before her 91 refit. That of course is a young Gary Kerr holding the D-7 (note the scale matches the photo of Jefferies holding it). But we can see colors now. But we are also post Magicam. We can compare the colors of the model to skin tones and the 1701. This is the photo I think best shows the colors of the model before Ed Miarecki repainted it. He repainted it based on a color photo of how it was sent over from AMT. In this photo it is clearly 3 colors with the neck being gray, the under body and engines being green and the top with a hint of purple. You can also just make out the color of the markings and see that the characters are lighter than the circle.
And in case you are wondering what the issue is with Magicam, this is how the returned it. It was sent to them intact. Lots of question surround what they did to it and what they returned. You can also clearly see the different colors, though I think they appear too dark here. Again, the circle is darker than the characters. The one arm you still can't tell if it is black or blue, but it is definitely very dark.
And this is why Magicam took it apart, to make these pyro models for the Phase II pilot that became TMP. The explosion was still in the early scripts before they changed it to the Klingon ships getting scanned. A few of these pyro models were exploded, but one was around for an important step later.
So, this is the main model after Ed Miarecki repainted it next to the Phase II/TMP model. You can see how faithfully they copied it before they started updating it. But it is a general light gray with silver grilles and details.
And here is where that inact pyro model made by Magicam comes in. This is a copy of it. This is the D-7 Gr'oth from Trials and Tribbleations. Note the completely different Klingon script. All the formerly silver grilles and details are a goldish copper. The marking is very yellow, green, blue, and red. The hull is azteced like the Phase II model and it has some additional markings (a yellow line and some red pinstriping - literally red tape). A modeler could achieve this look by painting the model gray and then penciling on the lines and highlighting them with some gray pastels. But you can see how good this copy of a copy is. One worry is that all or part of what was returned to the Smithsonian is not original. Both the models should have been built the same by the AMT builders, but no opportunity to compare them has come up. But what Magicam did raises a lot of questions about the model that the Smithsonian has had since that preclude any certainty as to how accurate it is.
The second model appears to be original. The markings look how I would expect them to after being on display so much over the past 50 years. The yellow of the circle has faded and the white of the Klingon characters has yellowed. For someone who has been modeling for 40 years and has some models that old, such yellowing and fading is not to be unexpected. And we don't have any good color reference photos for it. All the photos I have been able to find show evidence of heavy color distortion from the lighting conditions. That photo of it being held by Gary Kerr, provided those are the true original colors, is the best available source. Mainly due to the Enterprise in the background which we can easily compare the color of to other photos. And these colors match in tone to the photos of the second model, but on that model, under the poor lighting conditions, you can't tell if it is in 2 or 3 colors. My best guess for the colors, based on all these photos, is that the current gray is the correct color for the neck and head, the bottom of the main hull, aft end of the neck, and the engines should be a gray/turquoise color that is a hint darker, and the top of the head and the main body, including all of the outside of the pylon, should be a slightly darker gray with a hint of purple to it. Highlighted by a dull silver for most of the grilles. If you go by the 2nd model, there would also be some chrome (the center upper grille and two grilled areas on either side of the base of the neck).
Held by Matt Jefferies himself.
In this photo you can see the multi tone finish. The markings make it clear this is the first model (The 2nd model has an extra character). The main body is darker, but the top of the head is not (unusual). You cannot directly see the lower color vs. the neck/head color, but both are lighter than the upper body.
This photo from the AMT box art.
You can see from the side of the engines that this is the main model. It has the two bars on each side of the engine and has the right markings. Here you can clearly see the color of the markings. The white and yellow are distinct colors, though the two lower arms of the logo (or left arms since this was before it got rotated) are dark and hard to distinguish. You can also see some of the color differences. The pylon is darker than the engine. The lighting is extreme and obscures some details, but this is a color photo of the model.
This photo is from after the series while it was at the Smithsonian. I think there is another one in color form the front. If anyone has that from a pre 1978 source, please share. But again you can see that this is the main model due to the markings and the engines. The engines are lighter than the upper body. You can see in this photo that the grille on the pylons is not silver but the upper hull color. The head is lighter than the engines, but whether this is from it being a different color or the lighting who can say. The colors on the Klingon emblem make it clear that the long point is red and nearer small point is green, but otherwise all you can see from this is overall tone differences.
This screen capture from the original TOS also shows lighter engines, head and neck, darker upper body with painted grilles. It has been processed enough that you cannot make out the individual colors.
This screen cap doesn't really reveal anything except the marking on the bottom, but it is a cool shot. Not sure if everything in this shot is the same color or if the color difference is just obscured.
We can verify the time period in a number of ways. This is 1701 before her 91 refit. That of course is a young Gary Kerr holding the D-7 (note the scale matches the photo of Jefferies holding it). But we can see colors now. But we are also post Magicam. We can compare the colors of the model to skin tones and the 1701. This is the photo I think best shows the colors of the model before Ed Miarecki repainted it. He repainted it based on a color photo of how it was sent over from AMT. In this photo it is clearly 3 colors with the neck being gray, the under body and engines being green and the top with a hint of purple. You can also just make out the color of the markings and see that the characters are lighter than the circle.
And in case you are wondering what the issue is with Magicam, this is how the returned it. It was sent to them intact. Lots of question surround what they did to it and what they returned. You can also clearly see the different colors, though I think they appear too dark here. Again, the circle is darker than the characters. The one arm you still can't tell if it is black or blue, but it is definitely very dark.
And this is why Magicam took it apart, to make these pyro models for the Phase II pilot that became TMP. The explosion was still in the early scripts before they changed it to the Klingon ships getting scanned. A few of these pyro models were exploded, but one was around for an important step later.
So, this is the main model after Ed Miarecki repainted it next to the Phase II/TMP model. You can see how faithfully they copied it before they started updating it. But it is a general light gray with silver grilles and details.
And here is where that inact pyro model made by Magicam comes in. This is a copy of it. This is the D-7 Gr'oth from Trials and Tribbleations. Note the completely different Klingon script. All the formerly silver grilles and details are a goldish copper. The marking is very yellow, green, blue, and red. The hull is azteced like the Phase II model and it has some additional markings (a yellow line and some red pinstriping - literally red tape). A modeler could achieve this look by painting the model gray and then penciling on the lines and highlighting them with some gray pastels. But you can see how good this copy of a copy is. One worry is that all or part of what was returned to the Smithsonian is not original. Both the models should have been built the same by the AMT builders, but no opportunity to compare them has come up. But what Magicam did raises a lot of questions about the model that the Smithsonian has had since that preclude any certainty as to how accurate it is.
The second model appears to be original. The markings look how I would expect them to after being on display so much over the past 50 years. The yellow of the circle has faded and the white of the Klingon characters has yellowed. For someone who has been modeling for 40 years and has some models that old, such yellowing and fading is not to be unexpected. And we don't have any good color reference photos for it. All the photos I have been able to find show evidence of heavy color distortion from the lighting conditions. That photo of it being held by Gary Kerr, provided those are the true original colors, is the best available source. Mainly due to the Enterprise in the background which we can easily compare the color of to other photos. And these colors match in tone to the photos of the second model, but on that model, under the poor lighting conditions, you can't tell if it is in 2 or 3 colors. My best guess for the colors, based on all these photos, is that the current gray is the correct color for the neck and head, the bottom of the main hull, aft end of the neck, and the engines should be a gray/turquoise color that is a hint darker, and the top of the head and the main body, including all of the outside of the pylon, should be a slightly darker gray with a hint of purple to it. Highlighted by a dull silver for most of the grilles. If you go by the 2nd model, there would also be some chrome (the center upper grille and two grilled areas on either side of the base of the neck).
Fascinating! I had no idea that there even was a Phase II model for the D-7, let alone that it was later super detailed for it's appearance as the K'Tinga. That would seem to suggest that the K'Tinga is just about the same ship, in canon, as the D-7, just refit (and not that extensively, either!).
On that note, it occurs to me: at what point did we start referring to the movies version of the Klingon battlecruiser as the K'Tinga, and the TOS ship as the D-7? Who came up with that nomenclature?
I do wonder about the little antenna\barrel in the head of the ship. IIRC it was on the original model, so was it meant as a weapon or as a dish attenea ala the Enterprise? If the latter, then it would represent the first thought of making the dish more integrated on ships, as Jeffries did in the Phase II redesign of the Enterprise. Sometimes I really wish that Jeffries had written more about his thoughts of what all the bits and pieces were meant to do on the ships, as very clearly he had his own ideas about it. I suspect his thoughts at the time about the purpose of the parts of the ships were very different to what developed later.
Given the on screen evidence of the new Klingon logo, I'd say the emblem was meant to be Red, Pale White, and Black, with a gold background, classic "bad guy" colors. TAS added green, and the movie model seems to have added blue. I kinda like the idea that others have had about the colors in the symbol corresponding to different houses fleets, or else different units, whilst the overall symbol shape stays the same.
On that note, it occurs to me: at what point did we start referring to the movies version of the Klingon battlecruiser as the K'Tinga, and the TOS ship as the D-7? Who came up with that nomenclature?
I do wonder about the little antenna\barrel in the head of the ship. IIRC it was on the original model, so was it meant as a weapon or as a dish attenea ala the Enterprise? If the latter, then it would represent the first thought of making the dish more integrated on ships, as Jeffries did in the Phase II redesign of the Enterprise. Sometimes I really wish that Jeffries had written more about his thoughts of what all the bits and pieces were meant to do on the ships, as very clearly he had his own ideas about it. I suspect his thoughts at the time about the purpose of the parts of the ships were very different to what developed later.
Given the on screen evidence of the new Klingon logo, I'd say the emblem was meant to be Red, Pale White, and Black, with a gold background, classic "bad guy" colors. TAS added green, and the movie model seems to have added blue. I kinda like the idea that others have had about the colors in the symbol corresponding to different houses fleets, or else different units, whilst the overall symbol shape stays the same.
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I don't recall when they were first referred to by D-7 and K'tinga, but going by copyright dates of known instances, D-7 was in use by 1975 (the general plans) and K-tinga was in use in 1980
And I think you meant pale green and not pale white for the emblem. Every source I can find shows it green (pale or dark).
And I think you meant pale green and not pale white for the emblem. Every source I can find shows it green (pale or dark).
It looks white to me, that greenish hue could just be bleed from the old green screens. To me it's a off-white, cream type color... it very much reminds me of the colors I tend to use when mucking about in gimp, and I need to say make a flag with white stand out on a white background. Possibly the production staff was facing the same issues with the yellow\gold background color that's also quite pale. Red, White, and Black would seem to me a logical emblem coloration given the archetypal "bad guys" of the 20th century, who had a big ascetic influence. But maybe I'm just seeing things...
Amusingly, Memory Alpha, via Roddenberry claims that the D-7 name was bestowed by non-other than William Shatner & Leonard Nimoy (with them arguing about the number of doors, and the difference between a D-7 and D-6) , in a bit of fake arguing on set to get everyone to chill-out. K't'inga apparently comes from the novelization of the Motion Picture... given the noted similarities between the two classes, and the Voyager goof, I'd actually say that the D-7 is the Federation reporting name for the type generally, and that the K't'inga is the classes true name (or at least the name of the first ship to refit, ala the Enterprise class debate).
Amusingly, Memory Alpha, via Roddenberry claims that the D-7 name was bestowed by non-other than William Shatner & Leonard Nimoy (with them arguing about the number of doors, and the difference between a D-7 and D-6) , in a bit of fake arguing on set to get everyone to chill-out. K't'inga apparently comes from the novelization of the Motion Picture... given the noted similarities between the two classes, and the Voyager goof, I'd actually say that the D-7 is the Federation reporting name for the type generally, and that the K't'inga is the classes true name (or at least the name of the first ship to refit, ala the Enterprise class debate).
We got a good look at a larger version in Elaan of Troyius.
https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/emblems/klingon-new-elaanoftroyius.jpg
The circle is yellow the lower arm is pale green. This matches what we see in the photos of the model. In both the B&W photos, the longer arm (which we know is red) is black and the lower arm is pale. When you have B&W film that shows bright reds as black, that means the film is sensitive to red and greens will be lighter (even if they are actually darker. But from the emblem in Elaan of Troyius, the red, black/dark blue, pale green, and yellow are the accurate colors. In TMP that changed to more primary colors, red, blue, green, and yellow which was reflected in the DS9 model. The decals for the TOS ship are black, dark green, red, and yellow, with white characters. The decals I have predate DS9. The set on the older model predate TNG.
https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/emblems/klingon-new-elaanoftroyius.jpg
The circle is yellow the lower arm is pale green. This matches what we see in the photos of the model. In both the B&W photos, the longer arm (which we know is red) is black and the lower arm is pale. When you have B&W film that shows bright reds as black, that means the film is sensitive to red and greens will be lighter (even if they are actually darker. But from the emblem in Elaan of Troyius, the red, black/dark blue, pale green, and yellow are the accurate colors. In TMP that changed to more primary colors, red, blue, green, and yellow which was reflected in the DS9 model. The decals for the TOS ship are black, dark green, red, and yellow, with white characters. The decals I have predate DS9. The set on the older model predate TNG.
OK, I can see the green if I squint really hard. It's so pale and the lighting in Elan of Troyus is such it makes it hard to discern at first glance.
I can't confirm this, because I don't have the books handy, but IIRC the old FASA RPG material had numerous variations of the same ship, the TOS ship was the "D7-A K'Taaga-class" and the TMP ship was the "D-7M K'Tinga-class" with several others in between. Good enough for my head-canon!
--Alex
--Alex
FASA called the whole line D-7. Kind of like the B-17 Bomber (A, B, D, E, F, G) except they went up past M. They gave each letter a class name. They also called the Refit Enterprise the Enterprise Class, so we can't really rely on what they had to say. The D-7 was simply called the Klingon Battle Cruiser for TOS. I don't know when, but D-7 had gotten attached to it by the time McMaster did his general plans in 1975 (on the heels of Franz Joseph's plans and tech manual). So by the time I was paying any attention, D-7 had caught on. And K'Tinga was in use very soon after the movie. Kimble didn't use it on his plans, but it was around within a year. Geoffry Mandel referenced in his USS Enterprise Officer's Manual in 1980 (revised to include some TMP related information). He spelled it K'T'inga. The reference was under the D-7 drawing where the K'T'inga is noted to be similar. He also included a Klingon script where the characters on the studio model were D74.
So what FASA and Diane Duane did can both exist side by side by the ships being different models of the D-7.
So what FASA and Diane Duane did can both exist side by side by the ships being different models of the D-7.
*sigh*
[puts on Fact Trekker cap...again]
EDIT: I think I misread the first time because your sentence was awkward. So were you saying that Jein's "Trials and Tribble-ations" miniature was based on the the "white pyro" one in that other photo?
For those not sure what we're talking about, the light gray looking Klingon ship with all the surface detail is the Jein miniature built for "Trials and Tribble-ations". Just look at the inboard side of the nacelles and compare that to the episode screenshot. Bang. Perfect match. END EDIT
Lot 0001 Details
DESCRIPTION
A rare filming miniature of the Klingon's signature ship the D7 used in the award winning episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "Trials & Tribble-ations". This studio model, created by model maker Greg Jein features The Original Series style paint scheme and details. The ship features fiber optic lighting running through the main bridge and neck section, with LED lights on the wing sections. A small panel in the back of the ship is removable, as well as the main vent section on the top, revealing the ships armature made from aluminum. The main power cord is hidden away under the vent section, where the electronics are also present, but untested. The ship measures 30" x 24" x 6" and is stored in it's original studio crate. From the collection of Gary Hutzel.
And, for the record, I'm unconvinced there was aPhase II Star Trek II [TV] model. Magicam may have cast the Smithonian model for the TV movie, but the only photos I've ever seen of those castings were those used in the pyro tests for TMP at ASTRA/RA&A.
Presenting inferences as fact just manufactures more baloney. Let's not mimic Oscar Meyer.
[puts on Fact Trekker cap...again]
EDIT: I think I misread the first time because your sentence was awkward. So were you saying that Jein's "Trials and Tribble-ations" miniature was based on the the "white pyro" one in that other photo?
For those not sure what we're talking about, the light gray looking Klingon ship with all the surface detail is the Jein miniature built for "Trials and Tribble-ations". Just look at the inboard side of the nacelles and compare that to the episode screenshot. Bang. Perfect match. END EDIT
Lot 0001 Details
DESCRIPTION
A rare filming miniature of the Klingon's signature ship the D7 used in the award winning episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "Trials & Tribble-ations". This studio model, created by model maker Greg Jein features The Original Series style paint scheme and details. The ship features fiber optic lighting running through the main bridge and neck section, with LED lights on the wing sections. A small panel in the back of the ship is removable, as well as the main vent section on the top, revealing the ships armature made from aluminum. The main power cord is hidden away under the vent section, where the electronics are also present, but untested. The ship measures 30" x 24" x 6" and is stored in it's original studio crate. From the collection of Gary Hutzel.
And, for the record, I'm unconvinced there was a
Presenting inferences as fact just manufactures more baloney. Let's not mimic Oscar Meyer.
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Well, fortunately there are photos of the Phase II version of the model.
And photos of the team working on it for scale.
As you can see, the model looks remarkably like the TOS ship except for the aft end of the main hull which features a 2nd mount point and 2 impulse engine units and some other detailing. It features the same pattern on the surface and is the same scale. According to Memory Alpha, it is the same model. According to what I can see it is the same model used in TMP, TUC, and TNG. The Enterprise was scrapped, but this one was already of a good scale so they just modified it.
It is hard to get any sense of color from these photos. I would assume it is painted in grays, but who knows.
And photos of the team working on it for scale.
As you can see, the model looks remarkably like the TOS ship except for the aft end of the main hull which features a 2nd mount point and 2 impulse engine units and some other detailing. It features the same pattern on the surface and is the same scale. According to Memory Alpha, it is the same model. According to what I can see it is the same model used in TMP, TUC, and TNG. The Enterprise was scrapped, but this one was already of a good scale so they just modified it.
It is hard to get any sense of color from these photos. I would assume it is painted in grays, but who knows.
BTW, here's the TMP model with the earliest known paintjob I've seen...which is basically the TV one: gray on top and light green underbelly (hard to see in this video frame grab, but I have the book it's from). What's notable is that the bridge is already the revised shape...which Richard Taylor says he designed. Taylor came aboard with Abel. Abel came in when the project was already a feature (albeit unannounced) prior to Wise coming on board. Ergo this pre-feathered paintjob dates from the movie project, not the TV movie.
I'm not Maurice but that is from Star Trek: The Motion Picture Inside the Art & Visual Effects by Jeff Bond and Gene Kozicki. A wonderful book!
Thank you. I've missed one or two such books over the years.
There is a lot of confusion around a lot of the Phase II production and how it morphed into TMP. And that Magicam worked on models throughout the process only adds to the confusion.
Regardless, what remains true is that there was a model built that was largely a D-7 upscaled from the Smithsonian model. That model was reconfigured to the final filming model for TMP. The changes according to these photos was the bridge was already updated and so were the impulse engines and some other stern details. The rest of the model matches the TOS D-7.
Regardless, what remains true is that there was a model built that was largely a D-7 upscaled from the Smithsonian model. That model was reconfigured to the final filming model for TMP. The changes according to these photos was the bridge was already updated and so were the impulse engines and some other stern details. The rest of the model matches the TOS D-7.
This is basically it:
- There were two models built in 1968
- 1968TV was filmed
- 1968Jefferies was not filmed and held by Matt Jefferies untill...
- One of these was donated to the Smithsonian
- At some point this Smithsonian model was borrowed back (presumably by Magicam) and castings made, and I'll call these 1978Pyro
- Robert Abel and Associates pyroed some of these 1978Pyros in test footage
- Magicam built a large 4' miniature for the movie (which started verey close to the TV models, but went thrrough with many revisions specified by Taylor and Probert and later Apogee): what everyone calls the K'tinga
- A larger scale nacelle piece was made of this K'tinga ship for the angle where the Klingons first go "evasive"
- A "destructible" nacelle was made that gets eaten away by the V'ger energy bolt (seen in the Apogee TMP reel)
- The K'tinga miniature got pulled out of storage for ST6, but had been damaged (warped) by being packed incorrectly (Bill George told me this) and was repaired, repainted and had extra greeblies added
- Greg Jein built a roughy TV scale miniature in of the 1968 models with K'tinga like panels lines for "Trials and Tribble-ations", which I'll call Jein1996
- Various AMT kits were used for b.g. Klingon ships in DS9 until CGI models were employed.
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